Controlling contrast in B&W film

Sparrow.jpg

A
Sparrow.jpg

  • 0
  • 0
  • 0
Orlovka river valley

A
Orlovka river valley

  • 1
  • 0
  • 50
Norfolk coast - 2

A
Norfolk coast - 2

  • 3
  • 1
  • 54
In the Vondelpark

A
In the Vondelpark

  • 4
  • 2
  • 128
Cascade

A
Cascade

  • sly
  • May 22, 2025
  • 6
  • 6
  • 110

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
197,832
Messages
2,765,214
Members
99,485
Latest member
zwh166288
Recent bookmarks
0

dcy

Member
Joined
May 9, 2025
Messages
29
Location
USA
Format
35mm
This might be a dumb question... When reading film reviews, the reviewer always talks about whether a particular film is high contrast or low contrast. But I know that contrast is something you can adjust ---- If you overexpose the film and do a pull when you develop, you reduce contrast; and if you underexpose and do a push, you increase contrast. Right?

A naive person might look at that and conclude that there's no such thing as a film's contrast: The manufacturer could easily have rated the film as a lower ISO and recommended a shorter development time and rewritten the marketing material to call it a low-contrast film.

So.... There must be a reason why "it's not that simple". Could someone explain to me what I'm missing? Thanks.
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2017
Messages
424
Location
?
Format
Analog
This probably is only a part of the correct answer, but one reason should be that you cannot pull or push a certain film endlessly - to get the speed and contrast you want. The film needs to be designed for a certain range of light condition, you cannot produce an universal film.
 

Kino

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
7,652
Location
Orange, Virginia
Format
Multi Format
You might try reading some books on the subject to get a grounding in film processing in general.

"Black and White Photography: A Basic Manual Third Revised Edition" by Henry Horenstein is a good one.

If you want a comprehensive, but sometimes overwhelming book, try "Way Beyond Monochrome, 2nd Ed." by Ralph W. Lambrecht (a member here) and Chris Woodhouse.

There are many others, but those are two good ones...
 

Craig

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 8, 2004
Messages
2,247
Location
Calgary
Format
Multi Format
The thing to remember is that film is part of a system to obtain an image. The other part is the paper that the negative is printed onto. You may have seen the characteristic curve in a films datasheet, showing exposure vs log density. The slope of the line in the straight line section is the contrast index. The aim point of this slope for pictorial films is 0.58 (Kodak rating system, or 0.62 Gbar (Ilford measurement criteria).

The contrast index is specified this way, as for most average scenes the range of light is about 7 stops, and a 0.58 contrast index can capture all 7 stops with detail on the negative. That negative is then printable on a mid grade paper while retaining the same 7 stops of information in the scene.

The developing times in the manufacturers datasheet are starting points that should get you close to the target contrast index. They may need to be adjusted for your particular developing method, but are based on a standard methodology.

That's a very brief description, as there is a lot of mathematics behind the selection of the contrast index aim point, it is not random at all. Most of this was developed over a century ago by Kodak and has remained the standard.

These days, I think there are many people reviewing films who have no idea about the extensive science behind film photography and simply base their opinions on what a scanner puts out after an unknown development.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
52,175
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
That is a good book.
Before going any further, it is useful to come to a clear understanding what you and others mean by "contrast".
In the context of controlling and using film, contrast is not what sometimes people think of.
I'm speaking here of black and white negative films.
Contrast is a measurement of how films respond to varying amounts of light.
For example, a subject with several adjacent details of similar but not identical tones will render in various ways in a negative, depending on how the contrast in that negative is controlled. We can say that:
1) a film developed to a low contrast will render two adjacent but similar details in almost identical tones;
2) a film developed to a moderate contrast will render two adjacent but similar details in moderately different tones; and
3) a film developed to a high contrast will render two adjacent but similar details in distinctly different tones.

If contrast is too low for the subject and the light that illuminated it, the result will, at least at the negative stage, be somewhat "flat" or maybe even muddy.
If contrast is too high for the subject and the light that illuminated it, the result will, at least at the negative stage, be somewhat "harsh" or maybe "sooty".

The tool used to depict the contrast behavior of film is a graphed curve, which shows light level on one axis, and film density on the other axis, and is usually in logarithmic units. Typically the resulting curve is somewhat S shaped, with a middle, relatively straight section. The slope of that straight section is measured, and that slope is a measure of the film's contrast - a steep slope means very contrasty, while a less steep slope means less contrasty.

Here is a couple of examples - from the Kodak datasheet for TMax 400:

1747960908250.png


The tools used to control that slope, and through them the contrast behavior, include the following:
1) choice of film;
2) to a certain extent, choice of exposure level;
3) choice of developer;
4) dilution of developer;
5) temperature of development;
6) length of development time;
7) nature and extent of agitation.

Assuming a general purpose and commonly used film and developer pairing - which is where I would suggest starting - it makes most sense to give the film normal exposure - which comes from the ISO speed and a working meter - and to use a standard dilution of developer and a standard form of agitation. From there, the variables that are best suited to control the results are the temperature of development, and the time of development.
In both cases, increases will mean increased contrast.
The film and developer manufacturers give good recommendations for where to start. Use a reliable and consistent thermometer, and adjust to get the results you need.
But before you make adjustments, do your best to get help evaluating your results. For many relatively new to this, their perception of what is a "good" negative leads to under-exposed and over-developed negatives. When you see the results from more experienced photographers, you may find yourself surprised how they look different than what you originally supposed.

Here is an example, which I have frequently shared. The light was both dim and relatively low in contrast. The developed negative looks incredibly thin and might lead you to the conclusion that it is too low in contrast. I have scanned it, and I have printed it in a darkroom. I'm happy with how it renders:
leaves.jpg


I hope you find this helpful.
 

xkaes

Subscriber
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
4,563
Location
Colorado
Format
Multi Format
Matt covers it all, but a simpler explanation is that some films have higher contrast than other films -- if they are developed in exactly the same way.

But the contrast of any film can be controlled -- AKA, adjusted -- by its development. This includes the chemicals, the time, the temperature, the agitation, the dilution, etc.

So you can have a high contrast film and develop in with a low contrast method, and can end up with the same results if you used a low contrast film developed in with a high contrast method,

That's ONE reason why photography is an art -- different people use the same media in different ways to produce different results.
 

mshchem

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
14,358
Location
Iowa City, Iowa USA
Format
Medium Format


Discussion about Kodak D-19 higher contrast developer. Developer choice is important.
 

Alex Benjamin

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 8, 2018
Messages
2,293
Location
Montreal
Format
Multi Format
I call these The Seven Pillars of Contrast.

The tools used to control that slope, and through them the contrast behavior, include the following:
1) choice of film;
2) to a certain extent, choice of exposure level;
3) choice of developer;
4) dilution of developer;
5) temperature of development;
6) length of development time;
7) nature and extent of agitation.
 

Alex Benjamin

Subscriber
Joined
Aug 8, 2018
Messages
2,293
Location
Montreal
Format
Multi Format
I call these The Seven Pillars of Contrast.

Of course, if you're printing in the darkroom, you have to add type of enlarger head, type of paper, filter number, type of developer...
 
OP
OP
dcy

dcy

Member
Joined
May 9, 2025
Messages
29
Location
USA
Format
35mm
I hope you find this helpful.

It is indeed helpful, and I really do appreciate all the effort that you put in to give me a comprehensive response. If it's not too much trouble, do you happen to have the negative that produced that photo? You said that the negative looks incredibly thin and it might look to me like it's low contrast. It would be nice to see what that looks like then.

Speaking of, I've read the page that you linked to in the other thread ---- the one with the 9 sample shots showing the difference between over/under exposed vs over/under developed negatives and positives. That's really helpful, thank you.

1. For most examples, I feel I can see the difference between overexposed and overdeveloped images ---- the overdeveloped ones have a much higher "D_max".

2. But, honestly, I cannot see the difference between the underexposed and underdeveloped photos. I'm sure with practice I'll gradually get the hang of it.

Screenshot from 2025-05-22 20-06-42.png
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
52,175
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
2. But, honestly, I cannot see the difference between the underexposed and underdeveloped photos. I'm sure with practice I'll gradually get the hang of it.

View attachment 399162

An underexposed negative will lack detail in the shadows - they will be clear or nearly clear.
An underdeveloped negative will lack built up density in the highlights - they will be light gray, rather than darker gray, perhaps even approaching black.
In the examples above, the reproduction issues cloud the issue slightly. It is actually a bit easier to see on the positive images, rather than the adjacent negative images.
Comparing the "correctly exposed, underdeveloped" image with the "underexposed, correctly developed", one can see more detail in the shadowed parts of the face in the former, and more separation of tones in the lighter parts of the face in the latter.
 

Milpool

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2023
Messages
625
Location
51st state
Format
4x5 Format
It's crazy that you have seven knobs you can turn that all control one variable (the slope of the D vs exposure curve).

The gradient is determined by the amount of development. That’s about it. It’s sort of like how the ten commandments are really two.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
52,175
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
It's crazy that you have seven knobs you can turn that all control one variable (the slope of the D vs exposure curve).

It is sort of like those extra controls on a pipe or electric organ.
You can use them to adjust and shape the notes, but it probably is best just to use the normal keys to play the song.
 

Milpool

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2023
Messages
625
Location
51st state
Format
4x5 Format
This probably is only a part of the correct answer, but one reason should be that you cannot pull or push a certain film endlessly - to get the speed and contrast you want. The film needs to be designed for a certain range of light condition, you cannot produce an universal film.

This is on the right track. A “high contrast” film is essentially one that has a relatively narrow effective exposure range when developed to a normal gradient.

There aren’t really any general purpose films like this, so it really isn’t something to worry about.
 

djdister

Subscriber
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
41
Location
Maryland USA
Format
Multi Format
he correct answer, but one reason should be that you cannot pull or push a certain film endlessly - to get the speed and contrast you want. The film needs to be designed for a certain range of light condition, you cannot produce

This is on the right track. A “high contrast” film is essentially one that has a relatively narrow effective exposure range when developed to a normal gradient.

There aren’t really any general purpose films like this, so it really isn’t something to worry about.
You mean like lith film?

Screenshot 2025-05-22 225857.jpg
 

Milpool

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2023
Messages
625
Location
51st state
Format
4x5 Format
You mean like lith film?

View attachment 399168

Probably a good example. Kodalith was designed to build contrast/density rapidly and was primarily intended to do this when used with contrast-optimized developers. I don’t know what kind of effective exposure range it would have if developed to a normal gradient (and in a regular developer) but my guess is it would have a significantly narrower range than general purpose films.

Other special purpose materials such as document/copy films would also be examples of high contrast films.
 
Last edited:

mshchem

Subscriber
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
14,358
Location
Iowa City, Iowa USA
Format
Medium Format
Control of contrast, or lack of control is maybe a bigger deal when making optical enlargements. If you control it in the camera, and developing tank, leads to a much easier time (less fooling around dodging and burning) printing.

Always need to have adequate density no matter what. (better to overexpose and over develop than the opposite IMHOFWIW)
 

GregY

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
3,021
Location
Alberta
Format
Large Format
There are general purpose films advertised as being high contrast. Ilford Pan F is one of those.
"Pan F plus, 35mm, ISO 50, high contrast, super sharp black & white film with very fine grain. Ideal for studio photography and bright, natural light." Harman Technology.
 

RalphLambrecht

Subscriber
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Messages
14,591
Location
K,Germany
Format
Medium Format
This might be a dumb question... When reading film reviews, the reviewer always talks about whether a particular film is high contrast or low contrast. But I know that contrast is something you can adjust ---- If you overexpose the film and do a pull when you develop, you reduce contrast; and if you underexpose and do a push, you increase contrast. Right?

A naive person might look at that and conclude that there's no such thing as a film's contrast: The manufacturer could easily have rated the film as a lower ISO and recommended a shorter development time and rewritten the marketing material to call it a low-contrast film.

So.... There must be a reason why "it's not that simple". Could someone explain to me what I'm missing? Thanks.

I'm one of these naive people.
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
21,294
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
Could someone explain to me what I'm missing?

Nothing!

If anything, what you're running into is the informal nature of people's writings and 'reviews' of stuff. Some people go out on a sunny day and photograph a street scene on Fomapan 400 and conclude it's a "high contrast film", because look at those vast deep/open shadows and bright highlights on that white wall! That it's the nature of the scene they photographed, primarily, is left out of the equation.

More subtle are the uncountable instances when people confuse the black-box behavior of their scanning setup with inherent characteristics of the film they use. They'll shoot a roll, not really have a good look at the negatives (or don't really know what to look for in them; see point 2 you made in #11), run the film through the scanner and they end up with either bland digital files or very contrasty ones. Hey presto - the film is bland resp. contrasty!

To make sense of such remarks, you need to take into account the context and in particular the entire workflow, and often also the expectations and experience/knowledge level of the people involved. This is why on forums like Photrio, there's always such a lot of discussion that goes on and on about basically methodological issues. It's ultimately all needed just to get on the same page!
 

Yezishu

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2024
Messages
54
Location
Hong Kong
Format
35mm
It's crazy that you have seven knobs you can turn that all control one variable (the slope of the D vs exposure curve).

The key point: But at what cost?
The grain size, the dynamic range, the detail in highlights or shadows, the available developers and commercial labs, etc…It is a balancing ball game.
For example, a color negative film (Kodak Aerocolor 2460) can provide similar contrast at (EI 100 and c41 3:15)/(EI 640 and C41 5:15). This looks good, but if commercial labs only offer C41 processing at 3:15?
In reversal film or a film that can be reversed (most black and white films!), the limitation of dynamic range will be particularly obvious.
 

GregY

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
3,021
Location
Alberta
Format
Large Format
Nothing!

If anything, what you're running into is the informal nature of people's writings and 'reviews' of stuff. Some people go out on a sunny day and photograph a street scene on Fomapan 400 and conclude it's a "high contrast film", because look at those vast deep/open shadows and bright highlights on that white wall! That it's the nature of the scene they photographed, primarily, is left out of the equation.

More subtle are the uncountable instances when people confuse the black-box behavior of their scanning setup with inherent characteristics of the film they use. They'll shoot a roll, not really have a good look at the negatives (or don't really know what to look for in them; see point 2 you made in #11), run the film through the scanner and they end up with either bland digital files or very contrasty ones. Hey presto - the film is bland resp. contrasty!

To make sense of such remarks, you need to take into account the context and in particular the entire workflow, and often also the expectations and experience/knowledge level of the people involved. This is why on forums like Photrio, there's always such a lot of discussion that goes on and on about basically methodological issues. It's ultimately all needed just to get on the same page!

I think an educated discussion could differentiate between lighting conditions and the inherent characteristics of different films....
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
21,294
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
I think an educated discussion could differentiate between lighting conditions and the inherent characteristics of different films....

Indeed, and it should - and if it's any decent discussion at all, such things will be clarified. However, what one might hear/read/see online is often not in the form of a discussion, but instead of singular blurts by people without much context.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom