Controlling contrast in B&W film

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dcy

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If you want to try DYI you can try divided D 23, D23 will tame the grain, in the divided form will also compensate for high contrast situations. From Chatbot but both AA and Minor White provided the forumal as well.

The D-23 developer formula, used in black and white film development, typically involves 7.5 grams of Metol, 100 grams of Sodium Sulfite, and water to make a total of 1 liter.

Hmmm... Part of me is telling me I should stop collecting developers, but I do enjoy playing chemist. Besides, if I use D23 for Foma 400 from the beginning and stick to that, there's no harm.

I already have sodium sulfite and a good chemistry kit. The smallest amount of Metol I can find is 100g from ArtCraft chemicals for $28 with shipping. Do you know of any place where I can get a smaller amount more cheaply?
 

Yezishu

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You mentioned PCTEA and chemicals, so perhaps you have some phenidone and ascorbic acid on hand? they can also be used to mix some soft developer.
There are two reference points. First is Gainer's original PCTEA formula: 40g TEA, then (3.6g ascorbic acid and 0.2g phenidone), diluted to 1L(1:25). The second is Martin Levy's POTA formula: 30g anhydrous sodium sulfite, 1.5g phenidone, diluted to 1L.

PCTEA is a relatively "ordinary" formula, similar to standard developers like D76, while POTA is a very low-contrast developer that requires long development times (and degrades quickly, intended for one-time use).

Reducing the proportion of phenidone in PCTEA will enhance contrast (for example, 4.5g ascorbic acid and 0.125g phenidone), while increasing the proportion of phenidone (20~30g sodium sulfite, 1g ascorbic acid and 1g phenidone/0.5g ascorbic acid and 1g phenidone/0.4g ascorbic acid and 1.6g phenidone) will reduce contrast, making its characteristics closer to phenidone-only POTA. Michael R has some experiments on this, and I recently tested a few based on his results.

Comparing the same scene developed with standard D76, PCTEA, and modified formulas can reveal the differences among them. On the other hand, I feel that Fomapan 400 generally works (Or not too bad, depending on price and usage). The contrast can still be adjusted in printing or scanning. If you don't need sensitivity, you can directly use Fomapan 100 or 200 for finer grains.
 

koraks

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Someone told me to stay away from Foma 400 because it's hard to develop, is low quality, and has huge horrible grain.
The 'hard to develop' part is certainly incorrect. It develops fine like any other film. Development times tend to be on the longer side, but this is common for higher-speed films, so nothing special there.

'Huge horrible grain' is a bit of a subjective issue; I wouldn't call Foma 400's grain 'huge'. It's significantly present, which, again, is not really that odd for a high-speed film. There are certainly finer-grained 400-speed films out there, if this is important. But Foma 400's grain can be acceptable or even desirable depending on what you're after.

Concerning the 'low quality', there are two things that come to mind with this particular film. Firstly, the effective film speed. Most people who have used this film tend to agree (and the datasheet also supports it) that its real ISO speed, depending on the developer used, is between 160 and 250 or so. Roughly of what's stated on the box. Will you get an image if you rate it at 400? Sure. But shadow detail will be partly lacking. For some people this is perfectly acceptable.

Another side to the 'low quality' may refer to the rare/occasional defects that can occur on this film. Personally, I've seen image defects on Fomapan 400 in 35mm format that cannot be explained other than as being manufacturing defects. For me, the risk of running into these defects, combined with other characteristics of the product, were reason to move away from using it. However, plenty of people have used Fomapan 400 in several formats and to their satisfaction. So the whole 'low quality' issue is kind of relative to begin with. What may play a role here is that the quality issues of Fomapan 200 in 120 roll film format (that specific combination) reflect on the Foma brand altogether, resulting in people also associating Foma's other products with 'low quality'. However, it turns out that the Foma 200-120 emulsion issue is very specifically that particular combination, only.

As often, reality is more nuanced and I would suggest taking subjective qualifications with a grain of salt.

PS: Several years ago I spent a few days in Lisbon. This is one of my favorite photos from the trip - it was shot on Fomapan 400, 35mm:
1748071482379.png
 

Alex Benjamin

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Yeah. I keep seeing people expressing strong opinions about which film is dull or muddy or contrasty, but when I look photos with those films, they all look fine to me, and honestly I mostly can't tell them apart. I can see grain, but that's it, and right now I don't have strong feelings about grain either way.

Fact: a group of experienced film photographers can view a large, random body of images and not correctly guess the film that was used 95% of the time. Unless you’re viewing a photograph that has very distinctive properties (such as Kodak HIE), by the time the photographer has finished processing the image for presentation - be it a print or a digital image online - it’s not going to be possible to reliably identify the film used.
So, you’ve come to a sensible conclusion on your own. Yes, grain characteristics will tell you something about the film's speed (and negative format) but that won’t be a reliable indicator of film type. Most films can be used to make pretty much any kind of image the photographer wants. Some films are better adapted to making certain kinds of images. For example, people often choose Neopan Acros for night photography because it has very good reciprocity characteristics. The bottom line is that modern films are all - for the most part - excellent materials to work with and in the hands of someone who knows how to handle them, they will deliver excellent images. So choose a film that works for the way you want to work and learn its characteristics and handling requirements: expose lots of film, spend some time doing tests (over and underexposure, increase/decrease development times, etc).

As an aside - speaking of over/underexposure, I recently took a closer look at Tri-X and bracketed a roll of it (120 format) with the maximum overexposure going all the way up to 2.5 stops OVER box speed. This is the finished image from the negative that received 2.5 stops exposure over box speed, and this is the image from the negative that was rated at my normal exposure rating of 200 ASA. The 2.5 over negative was quite dense, but I had no trouble making a good image from it. I wasn't exactly surprised, but this was a good reminder that modern films are far more capable and flexible than they were 50+ years ago.

If I were to make a reasonable recommendation for you, I’d say: try any film you want to try, avoid playing around with esoteric developers and development techniques, stick to basics first and make observations about your results (take notes!) and once you feel you understand the essential traits of any given film, go ahead and poke around the outer edges of what’s possible. I also recommend getting a copy of Henry Horenstein’s “Beyond Basic Photography” - it’s a rich, well written manual for those who want more out of their B&W film work and are eager to explore film media. Copies can be had on fleabay for about five bucks, shipping included. (Used, of course)
And since you’re clearly interested in the chemistry of film/darkroom processes, “The Film Developing Cookbook” by Troop and Anchell is an excellent book to have. It is written in a style that is accessible to both novices and seasoned pros, and is a fantastic manual to teach yourself all about film chemistry.

About sourcing darkroom chemistry: you can buy very small amounts of chemicals from places like Formulary, but it’s a false economy - 100 grams of Metol isn’t that much, and having it on hand will enable you to make up a few simple developers at home. I’d recommend buying what you need to make D-76 and maybe Mytol (home brew Xtol. Recipe #2 is generally accepted as "the right one", but none of the three referenced on that page is "wrong") so that you’ll have good reason to have multiple chemicals on hand. 10 grams of Metol from a supplier isn’t going to be that much cheaper than 100 grams from ArtCraft once you add a pound of sodium sulfite, and maybe some phenidone, etc.
 
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GregY

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Fact: a group of experienced film photographers can view a large, random body of images and not correctly guess the film that was used 95% of the time. Unless you’re viewing a photograph that has very distinctive properties (such as Kodak HIE), by the time the photographer has finished processing the image for presentation - be it a print or a digital image online - it’s not going to be possible to reliably identify the film used.
So, you’ve come to a sensible conclusion on your own. Yes, grain characteristics will tell you something about the film's speed (and negative format) but that won’t be a reliable indicator of film type. Most films can be used to make pretty much any kind of image the photographer wants. Some films are better adapted to making certain kinds of images. For example, people often choose Neopan Acros for night photography because it has very good reciprocity characteristics. The bottom line is that modern films are all - for the most part - excellent materials to work with and in the hands of someone who knows how to handle them, they will deliver excellent images. So choose a film that works for the way you want to work and learn its characteristics and handling requirements: expose lots of film, spend some time doing tests (over and underexposure, increase/decrease development times, etc).

As an aside - speaking of over/underexposure, I recently took a closer look at Tri-X and bracketed a roll of it (120 format) with the maximum overexposure going all the way up to 2.5 stops OVER box speed. This is the finished image from the negative that received 2.5 stops exposure over box speed, and this is the image from the negative that was rated at my normal exposure rating of 200 ASA. The 2.5 over negative was quite dense, but I had no trouble making a good image from it. I wasn't exactly surprised, but this was a good reminder that modern films are far more capable and flexible than they were 50+ years ago.

If I were to make a reasonable recommendation for you, I’d say: try any film you want to try, avoid playing around with esoteric developers and development techniques, stick to basics first and make observations about your results (take notes!) and once you feel you understand the essential traits of any given film, go ahead and poke around the outer edges of what’s possible. I also recommend getting a copy of Henry Horenstein’s “Beyond Basic Photography” - it’s a rich, well written manual for those who want more out of their B&W film work and are eager to explore film media. Copies can be had on fleabay for about five bucks, shipping included. (Used, of course)
And since you’re clearly interested in the chemistry of film/darkroom processes, “The Film Developing Cookbook” by Troop and Anchell is an excellent book to have. It is written in a style that is accessible to both novices and seasoned pros, and is a fantastic manual to teach yourself all about film chemistry.

About sourcing darkroom chemistry: you can buy very small amounts of chemicals from places like Formulary, but it’s a false economy - 100 grams of Metol isn’t that much, and having it on hand will enable you to make up a few simple developers at home. I’d recommend buying what you need to make D-76 and maybe Mytol (home brew Xtol. Recipe #2 is generally accepted as "the right one", but none of the three referenced on that page is "wrong") so that you’ll have good reason to have multiple chemicals on hand. 10 grams of Metol from a supplier isn’t going to be that much cheaper than 100 grams from ArtCraft once you add a pound of sodium sulfite, and maybe some phenidone, etc.

Well said RR. In the past it was said "learn to use one film & one developer well." I believe that like other endeavors the 10,000 hour rule applies, be it to developing film (and understanding the characteristics) or printing, in the darkroom or digitally. One may get lucky and produce a good print at some point, but consistency is the long game.
 
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Paul Howell

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Yeah. I keep seeing people expressing strong opinions about which film is dull or muddy or contrasty, but when I look photos with those films, they all look fine to me, and honestly I mostly can't tell them apart. I can see grain, but that's it, and right now I don't have strong feelings about grain either way.

Are looking you on line or optically printed? Once scanned and processed in LR or other possessing software with AI to help just about film can be moderated, smooth out the gain, increase or decreased contrast. With an optically printed differences between is more apparent. Saying that when an Air Force photographer and later working for the wires I shot just about every 35mm film on the Market. TriX, HP5, GAF 500, Foma 500, Fuji, ect ect, in the end once developed printed then turned into a half tone, dont think anyone could what the film was.
 

pentaxuser

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I shot just about every 35mm film on the Market. TriX, HP5, GAF 500, Foma 500, Fuji, ect ect, in the end once developed printed then turned into a half tone, dont think anyone could what the film was.

Paul, I wonder what the range of answers/reactions to the above will be? 😎

pentaxuser
 

Paul Howell

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Hmmm... Part of me is telling me I should stop collecting developers, but I do enjoy playing chemist. Besides, if I use D23 for Foma 400 from the beginning and stick to that, there's no harm.

I already have sodium sulfite and a good chemistry kit. The smallest amount of Metol I can find is 100g from ArtCraft chemicals for $28 with shipping. Do you know of any place where I can get a smaller amount more cheaply?

PF sells bulk chemistry, you can also buy a 1lt kit from them to see how you like before investing in bulk chemistry.

 

GregY

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Paul, I wonder what the range of answers/reactions to the above will be? 😎

pentaxuser

Puser, I'd agree. I think there's a lot of discussion like a dog chasing its tail. IMO choose a film (or films) that you think will work for your purpose & then tweak your personal development (taking into account some/all of..... metering methods, shutter, development method, anticipated outcome).
 

GregY

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The 'hard to develop' part is certainly incorrect. It develops fine like any other film. Development times tend to be on the longer side, but this is common for higher-speed films, so nothing special there.

'Huge horrible grain' is a bit of a subjective issue; I wouldn't call Foma 400's grain 'huge'. It's significantly present, which, again, is not really that odd for a high-speed film. There are certainly finer-grained 400-speed films out there, if this is important. But Foma 400's grain can be acceptable or even desirable depending on what you're after.

Concerning the 'low quality', there are two things that come to mind with this particular film. Firstly, the effective film speed. Most people who have used this film tend to agree (and the datasheet also supports it) that its real ISO speed, depending on the developer used, is between 160 and 250 or so. Roughly of what's stated on the box. Will you get an image if you rate it at 400? Sure. But shadow detail will be partly lacking. For some people this is perfectly acceptable.

Another side to the 'low quality' may refer to the rare/occasional defects that can occur on this film. Personally, I've seen image defects on Fomapan 400 in 35mm format that cannot be explained other than as being manufacturing defects. For me, the risk of running into these defects, combined with other characteristics of the product, were reason to move away from using it. However, plenty of people have used Fomapan 400 in several formats and to their satisfaction. So the whole 'low quality' issue is kind of relative to begin with. What may play a role here is that the quality issues of Fomapan 200 in 120 roll film format (that specific combination) reflect on the Foma brand altogether, resulting in people also associating Foma's other products with 'low quality'. However, it turns out that the Foma 200-120 emulsion issue is very specifically that particular combination, only.

As often, reality is more nuanced and I would suggest taking subjective qualifications with a grain of salt.

PS: Several years ago I spent a few days in Lisbon. This is one of my favorite photos from the trip - it was shot on Fomapan 400, 35mm:

"The 'hard to develop' part is certainly incorrect.
" Koraks IMO the 'hard to develop' part is also a subjective comment. Of course any film can be easy to develop. Getting the results one anticipates is another story entirely. Whether one chooses or avoids a film/developer/paper......based on someone else's perhaps offhand comments or negative experience is another matter altogether..
BTW, that's a beautiful image of yours.....i only wish i could see it in print rather than online. Indeed "reality is nuanced."
 

koraks

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.i only wish i could see it in print rather than online.

Yeah, the limitations of the internet. I must have that print here somewhere, stashed away in a box. The original print is a little wider; if I were to print it today, I'd crop it as shown above. The original print is on Fomabrom, and a little more heavy than the digital version shown above as I recall.
 

Bill Burk

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It's crazy that you have seven knobs you can turn that all control one variable (the slope of the D vs exposure curve).
Crazier is trying to figure out which of them went wrong when something does go wrong.

I tried to figure out why my last tank run was underdeveloped.

I have a couple theories.

One problem might be that I put the USB probe thermometer under the outflow of the faucet where the water goes into a smaller-than-needed bucket of tempering water. That temperature was 70-degrees F. Although the developer started at 70-degrees F (matching inflow but see next suspected issue), I think it cooled off to 68 when it filled the "cold" tall 8-reel tank. The USB probe controls my compensating developing timer, and appears to have guided me to a real developing time of 10 minutes 15 seconds developing time (according to my time-ci chart published in Photrio resources).

Another problem I just found is that the adjustable dial thermometer I had in the developing tank was reading 70-degrees F while the USB probe temperature indicated 67-degrees F. I have adjusted the dial thermometer but will double-check it more often. The USB probe, a Paterson glass thermometer and the dial thermometer now agree.

The compensated developing time with aim temperature 68-degrees F for 13 minutes 30 seconds when actual temperature is 70-degrees F is 11 minutes and 45 seconds. (According to stopwatch re-cap of running the timer with the probe in a bath of water at 70-Degrees F)

So best guess is I had a few factors work against me. The dial thermometer was wrong, making the actual developer temperature 67-degrees F going in, the tall tank may have cooled that developer down when it was poured in. The water bath was 70-degrees F but insufficient to raise the temperature in the tall tank to 70-degrees F over time. And the real time was 11 minutes 45 seconds. I might have lost thirty seconds by starting timer before pouring in developer.

I aimed for 0.6 CI, a good contrast would have been 0.55 CI but I got 0.5 CI which many people like because it gives thin negatives without blowing out highlights.

I just prefer a richer, overall more dense negative for printing, so I'll be more careful next time. I'll put the USB probe in the tall tank when I develop and will use Infrared viewer so I can see what I'm doing in the dark with the tank lid open.



2025-05-23-0001.jpg
 
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dcy

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Thanks! Yeah, this is cheaper. Order submitted.

To keep my sanity, I'm going to use D-23 only for Foma 400.

In fact, I'm also going to put Rodinal aside for now and stick to D-76 1+1 and/or PC-TEA 1+50 so my head doesn't explode with film-developer combinations.

EDIT: While I have you here. The Massive Dev Chart has two recommendations for Fomapan 400 with D-23. Do you recommend one of them over the other? Also, am I supposed to use D-23 "one shot" or am I supposed to reuse it?
 

Paul Howell

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At this point a bit or more than a bit off topic, The reason I use a given film is a combination of factors. My primary travel film is Tmax 400. Fast enough when using a mid level pro consumer zoom, can be pushed to 800 with much loss of shadow, a true 1 stop push is 1600. Grain is somewhat finer than Trix, has decent resolution and edge sharpness, easier to find on the road. What I like about Foma 400 is price. In bluk load cheap enough for my walk around film. I do a long daily walk and carry a camera with a few lens. It takes more work to print Foma 400 than Tmax 400, the stright line curve of Tmax 400 means it will print at grade 2 with an occassional split grade print for dodgeing and buring in small details. I do like the way Tmax 400 filters better and Foma, but not enought pay the extra cost of Tmax as my dailiy shooter. In 120, Tmax 400, walk around is now Kentmere 400, I did use Foma but hate the curle. The trade off is here in the low desert not having an antiahogen layer can be a problem. In 4X5, due to cost I shoot Foma 400 and 100. Others have reported issues with QC, I have not had any issues. If I win the big lottery then I would shoot Tmax 400 and 100. But on my list to try a box of PF4 in 4X5, sometime this summer.
 
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dcy

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So, you’ve come to a sensible conclusion on your own.

🙂

So choose a film that works for the way you want to work and learn its characteristics and handling requirements: expose lots of film, spend some time doing tests (over and underexposure, increase/decrease development times, etc).

Will do!

As an aside - speaking of over/underexposure, I recently took a closer look at Tri-X and bracketed a roll of it (120 format) with the maximum overexposure going all the way up to 2.5 stops OVER box speed. This is the finished image from the negative that received 2.5 stops exposure over box speed, and this is the image from the negative that was rated at my normal exposure rating of 200 ASA. The 2.5 over negative was quite dense, but I had no trouble making a good image from it. I wasn't exactly surprised, but this was a good reminder that modern films are far more capable and flexible than they were 50+ years ago.

Wow. That's crazy; 2.5 stops and in the end the prints look almost identical to me --- biggest difference I see is that the Sun moved slightly.

If I were to make a reasonable recommendation for you, I’d say: try any film you want to try, avoid playing around with esoteric developers and development techniques, stick to basics first and make observations about your results (take notes!) and once you feel you understand the essential traits of any given film, go ahead and poke around the outer edges of what’s possible.

Thanks. I will follow that advice. Thanks also for the book recommendations.

About sourcing darkroom chemistry: you can buy very small amounts of chemicals from places like Formulary, but it’s a false economy - 100 grams of Metol isn’t that much, and having it on hand will enable you to make up a few simple developers at home.

Yeah. I saw the price for 10g and I ended up buying 100g for the reason you gave. Still, 100g from Formulary with shipping was 33% cheaper than 100g from ArCraft with shipping, so I'm still happy.


I’d recommend buying what you need to make D-76 and maybe Mytol (home brew Xtol. Recipe #2 is generally accepted as "the right one", but none of the three referenced on that page is "wrong") so that you’ll have good reason to have multiple chemicals on hand. 10 grams of Metol from a supplier isn’t going to be that much cheaper than 100 grams from ArtCraft once you add a pound of sodium sulfite, and maybe some phenidone, etc.

I would love to make D-76 and MyTol at some point.

Standard MyTol requires some ingredients I don't have (Sodium metaborate, ascorbate, and metabisulfite). But with the ingredients I have at home, I can make "Instant MyTol", which was designed for the explicit purpose of having fewer ingredients. It was published in the "Easy Film Developers" website, but that website seems to be gone! The Way Back Machine has a snapshot from December last year:

 

GregY

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Dcy,
Since you are interested in different developers and live in the light of the "Land of Enchantment," i'd suggest getting a copy of Gordon Hutchings "Book of Pyro" from the library. Both PMK & Pyrocat HD have a real ease with highlight separation....just saying....
IMG_0787 3.jpg
 
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Yezishu

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Don't worry about the chemicals. Sodium metaborate-borax, sodium ascorbate-ascorbic acid, sodium metabisulfite-sodium bisulfite-sodium sulfite are all Interchangeable. You can use them to make your own Xtol with just a few calculations. DTPA-Na5 is unnecessary for one-time use. The chemical calculations can be found here. Of course, I recommend a pack of Kodak's official Xtol for comparison at the first development.
 

Alex Benjamin

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EDIT: While I have you here. The Massive Dev Chart has two recommendations for Fomapan 400 with D-23. Do you recommend one of them over the other? Also, am I supposed to use D-23 "one shot" or am I supposed to reuse it?

MDC is the worst place to find reliable information on D-23.

Good practice with D-23 is to start with ID-11/D-76 times. I add 10%-15% to that time, as D-23 gives negatives with is a bit less contrast than the other two. I've noticed a slight speed loss with D-23, so I rate my film 1/3 stop slower.

Use one shot 1:1 dilution.

You can re-use the stock solution, up to a certain point, after which it's best to replenish with DK-25. Replenished D-23 is a great developer.
 

angedani

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MDC est le pire endroit pour trouver des informations fiables sur D-23.

Une bonne pratique avec le D-23 est de commencer avec un temps ID-11/D-76. J'ajoute 10 à 15 %, car le D-23 produit des négatifs légèrement moins contrastés que les deux autres. J'ai constaté une légère perte de vitesse avec le D-23, c'est pourquoi je ralentis mon film d'un tiers de diaphragme.

Utiliser une dilution 1:1 en une seule dose.

Vous pouvez réutiliser la solution mère jusqu'à un certain point, après quoi il est préférable de la compléter avec du DK-25. Le D-23 reconstitué est un excellent révélateur.

je peux d aider a retirer l arriere plan de ta photo
 
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