Contrast filters and midtones

[Sirius Glass]

One can only get of the shadows what the film has captured. No data is no data, no data cannot be brought forth. If you want more shadow detail then learn the exposure techniques of the Zone System. That aside, first try grade 2 or 3, then if it is still not what you want, get the grade 5 correct. Print a grade 5 and then use grade 0 or 00 for several exposure times for the best print possible.

 

[Pieter12]

If you are not dodging or burning with 00 and/or 5 filters, the only advantage to split-grade printing is you can get intermediate grades of contrast rather than the fixed ones of single filters. (of course, using a color head or a multigrade head can get you the intermediates as well). Out of curiosity, what were your 5 and 00 exposure times?

 

[grain elevator]

Split grade isn't so hard and this way OP will already know how to do it when he wants to split dodge/burn. And it's easier to do than figuring out an intermediate filter for some minds and with some enlarger setups. No harm in going the other way either of course. But OP is almost there with the print and his split grade method, I say persevere!

 

[Ariston]

Then you should ignore every reply thus far and concentrate on printing with no filtration at the correct enlarger exposure.

Thanks, but I already know how to do that with no problem.

One can only get of the shadows what the film has captured. No data is no data, no data cannot be brought forth. If you want more shadow detail then learn the exposure techniques of the Zone System. That aside, first try grade 2 or 3, then if it is still not what you want, get the grade 5 correct. Print a grade 5 and then use grade 0 or 00 for several exposure times for the best print possible.

The negative has some detail for the tire, but none for the wheel well. This is where I am trying to learn to create some separation. The procedure you describe is what I tried. See below for a description of my results.

If you are not dodging or burning with 00 and/or 5 filters, the only advantage to split-grade printing is you can get intermediate grades of contrast rather than the fixed ones of single filters. (of course, using a color head or a multigrade head can get you the intermediates as well). Out of curiosity, what were your 5 and 00 exposure times?

I am away from home, but think it was six seconds on 5 and two seconds on 00. Even if I stopped down and gave myself more time with the 00, ANY additional time was adding dramatically more mid tones.



Nicholas, your posts are very helpful. I am reading up. Thank you! Thank you to everyone, as always.

 

[Pieter12]

Thanks, but I already know how to do that with no problem.


The negative has some detail for the tire, but none for the wheel well. This is where I am trying to learn to create some separation. The procedure you describe is what I tried. See below for a description of my results.



I am away from home, but think it was six seconds on 5 and two seconds on 00. Even if I stopped down and gave myself more time with the 00, ANY additional time was adding dramatically more mid tones.

That would be the equivalent of about a 3-1/2. Possible a tad too contrasty if you are looking to pull detail out of the shadows. If you want to stick with split-grade printing, go for the 00 first, followed by the 5. Get the overall image to your pleasing, then you might need to dodge the 5 somewhat in the wheel well/tire area. It can't hurt to experiment with some scraps of paper on just that area.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Ariston,

Be aware that x seconds of #5 plus x seconds of #00 will always be exactly the same contrast as you can get with a single exposure at an intermediate contrast setting.

The real advantage of split-grade printing is being able to dodge and burn areas selectively with more or less contrast. Burning is usually the easier of the two (especially if you start with a base exposure at an intermediate contrast setting), so you have to either change your base exposure or dodge those areas during the base exposure so you can burn them back later. It can get complicated, but the principles are simple.

Also be aware that there are times when, as the song says, you can't get what you want.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Ariston]

Ariston,

Be aware that x seconds of #5 plus x seconds of #00 will always be exactly the same contrast as you can get with a single exposure at an intermediate contrast setting.

See, I did not know this. I thought you could pull out more highlights or more shadows through split grade printing. That is what was confusing me, because I did not feel I was faring much better than using a single filter. Thank you.

I will be practicing dodging and burning with filters after I am more comfortable dodging and burning in general. It is not too hard a concept, and I am getting along fine, but it takes experience to know how much effect the different times have on dodging and burning.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

... as the song says, you can't [always] get what you want.

But, you always get what you need.

 

[Pieter12]

See, I did not know this. I thought you could pull out more highlights or more shadows through split grade printing. That is what was confusing me, because I did not feel I was faring much better than using a single filter. Thank you.

I will be practicing dodging and burning with filters after I am more comfortable dodging and burning in general. It is not too hard a concept, and I am getting along fine, but it takes experience to know how much effect the different times have on dodging and burning.

This is where your test strips come in handy. You can get a good estimate of how much more or less you need to dodge and burn with the individual filters by examining the test strips.

 

[MattKing]

See, I did not know this. I thought you could pull out more highlights or more shadows through split grade printing.

You can. You use split grade dodges and burns to do this.
Add a small high contrast burn to a white cloud, and see how much detail "pops".

 

[MattKing]

This is where your test strips come in handy. You can get a good estimate of how much more or less you need to dodge and burn with the individual filters by examining the test strips.

And don't be afraid to do different tests strips, in different parts of the print. One for the chrome, one for the windshield, one for the wheel well, etc.
With a complex image, you can end up with a set of test strips that together can, when properly arrayed, look like a jigsaw puzzle image of your print.

 

[pentaxuser]

You might want to have a look at this video by an Ilford printer called Dave Butcher

pentaxuser

 

[Ariston]

You can. You use split grade dodges and burns to do this.
Add a small high contrast burn to a white cloud, and see how much detail "pops".

I meant I thought you could get more detail with split grade printing without the burning. If I am understanding correctly, since you can get the same result with a single filter, the only benefit to split grade printing is for dodging and burning. Is that right?

I though split grade printing without the dodging and burning made a difference. Doremus is saying that it does not.

 

[MattKing]

I though split grade printing without the dodging and burning made a difference.

Other than allowing you to work with just two filters, it gives you access to intermediate grades of contrast - you can have the equivalent to grade 3.88 with a condenser enlarger (as an example).
Otherwise, if you are limiting yourself to just straight prints, it adds nothing more.
But why would you limit yourself to using the same contrast for all parts of the print, when you don't have to?

 

[Ariston]

Other than allowing you to work with just two filters, it gives you access to intermediate grades of contrast - you can have the equivalent to grade 3.88 with a condenser enlarger (as an example).
Otherwise, if you are limiting yourself to just straight prints, it adds nothing more.
But why would you limit yourself to using the same contrast for all parts of the print, when you don't have to?

Because I can't grasp what the filters are doing. Reading the paper posted earlier, now I learn that you can't get full black unless all three layers of the VC paper are activated, which means if you just use a 5 filter in a section, you can't get full black. So, even though it is the highest contrast filter, you can't get full black with it.

I am still working on it.

 

[Danner]

This is a very informative thread [beerclink]

 

[Pieter12]

Because I can't grasp what the filters are doing. Reading the paper posted earlier, now I learn that you can't get full black unless all three layers of the VC paper are activated, which means if you just use a 5 filter in a section, you can't get full black. So, even though it is the highest contrast filter, you can't get full black with it.

I am still working on it.

You are activating all the layers by using the 00 and 5 filters. You are exposing the entire image with both filters, right? I'm not sure I can visualize how you are having this much of an issue--besides the sequence. How are you burning (and maybe dodging is what you should be doing)? Are you using your hands or tools (both work well, but hands can be tricky if you're burning a small area)? What size? You might want to close the lens a stop or add an ND gel to the filter drawer to get more manageable burn times.

 

[Ariston]

You are activating all the layers by using the 00 and 5 filters. You are exposing the entire image with both filters, right? I'm not sure I can visualize how you are having this much of an issue--besides the sequence. How are you burning (and maybe dodging is what you should be doing)? Are you using your hands or tools (both work well, but hands can be tricky if you're burning a small area)? What size? You might want to close the lens a stop or add an ND gel to the filter drawer to get more manageable burn times.

Hi Pieter,

I’ve described some of the things I’m doing a few times. For instance, on the first page I posted a photo of a car, and described how I was timing the filters to try and get some separation between the black tire (has minor detail in the negative) and the fully black wheel well. How would you accomplish this?

In that instance I wasn’t dodging or burning yet.

 

[Pieter12]

I would start by making a test strip with the 00 filter to establish the exposure that just starts to show highlight detail. Then, first exposing for that time with the 00 filter, I would make a series of test exposures on that same sheet with the 5 filter, choosing the time that shows the midtones and detail I want overall in the image. I would then make a print with those times and filtration, burning areas I want darker and dodging areas I want lighter with the appropriate filters. It seems to me you need to dodge the 5 filter exposure in the tire to bring out the detail.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

if you just use a 5 filter in a section, you can't get full black

All the emulsions are sensitive to blue light. So the magenta filter (lets through blue + red) exposes all the emulsions.

For lower contrast the yellow filter holds back some of the blue light but by the time the full exposure is given both emulsions, green sensitive and blue sensitive, are fully exposed for the black parts of the image.

The reason the 'blue' filter is magenta is because it lets through red light (which the paper doesn't see) to help you see to dodge & burn with the filter in place. With a true blue filter in place the image on the easel is pretty dim - our eyes are not very sensitive to blue.

If you look around outside the only thing blue is the sky (unless you live on a Caribbean island or in a field of blue-bells) and there isn't anything interesting or good to eat (or that wants to eat us) that's blue; in Cleveland there isn't even much blue in the sky.

 

[Ariston]

I would start by making a test strip with the 00 filter to establish the exposure that just starts to show highlight detail. Then, first exposing for that time with the 00 filter, I would make a series of test exposures on that same sheet with the 5 filter, choosing the time that shows the midtones and detail I want overall in the image. I would then make a print with those times and filtration, burning areas I want darker and dodging areas I want lighter with the appropriate filters. It seems to me you need to dodge the 5 filter exposure in the tire to bring out the detail.

Thank you for that description. I have done that procedure, except without the dodging with the 5 filter, so I will try that.

All the emulsions are sensitive to blue light. So the magenta filter (lets through blue + red) exposes all the emulsions.

For lower contrast the yellow filter holds back some of the blue light but by the time the full exposure is given both emulsions, green sensitive and blue sensitive, are fully exposed for the black parts of the image.

The reason the 'blue' filter is magenta is because it lets through red light (which the paper doesn't see) to help you see to dodge & burn with the filter in place. With a true blue filter in place the image on the easel is pretty dim - our eyes are not very sensitive to blue.

If you look around outside the only thing blue is the sky (unless you live on a Caribbean island or in a field of blue-bells) and there isn't anything interesting or good to eat (or that wants to eat us) that's blue; in Cleveland there isn't even much blue in the sky.

Okay, I understand that description (those technical papers were a little steep for me). What is a little weird is that I did a print with a 2.5 filter and one with a 5 filter, and the blacks seemed blacker in the print with the 2.5 filter. Otherwise, the tones in the prints were pretty similar. I have been doing all kinds of test strips and prints to see the different ways they react.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

What is a little weird is that I did a print with a 2.5 filter and one with a 5 filter, and the blacks seemed blacker in the print with the 2.5 filter. Otherwise, the tones in the prints were pretty similar. I have been doing all kinds of test strips and prints to see the different ways they react.

Now that is more than just a little weird.

You wouldn't happen to be using an enlarger with a 'cold light' head? Some enlarger light sources wreak holy havoc with VC papers.

 

[Light Capture]

There are too many variables in your process.

I would suggest going with basics if you didn't already do them. When you get them all sorted, tested out and sure you understand correlation and get predictable prints, then you can move to more advanced suggestions to get details dialed in. Use few more negatives with different light to be able to make comparisons.
Images with sky or pinpointed light sources will have different characteristics.
Check if you can get full black on paper exposed to room light and test your safelight.
If you don't do proper agitation or your developer is too old/weak, there won't be full black achievable.
Sometimes when I have long printing session that goes to next day, full deep black can't be achieved without replenishing developer.
Make sure to test from time to time. Otherwise, it's a moving target.

Getting separation in deep shadows and highlights is what defines masters in B&W printing.

There are 3 basic ways of controlling contrast (some others as well, but not important here):
1. Graded paper
2. Contrast filters (either fixed or with colour head)
3. Split printing

Dodging and burning can be used with both. Experimenting with combinations of 2 and 3 would help you understand how it works for you.

There is also additional hybrid approach that could be the easiest in your case.
Print on single grade. Let's say 2.5 grade works the best for your image.
Now you can use #5 filter to burn in either whole image or just enough to get deep blacks sparkle.
If you decide to burn in, you can direct your burning to areas where you want to get deeper blacks and increase contrast.

Or you can make darker test image where you get desirable midtones and highlights. From there it can be decided based on the test print how to dodge areas that are too dark.
Test strip of this should be produced so there is full understanding of what's happening in those areas.
Dry down needs to be evaluated as well for deepest shadows. It has big effect in deep shadows.

Again, you have to be sure you can get full black on exposed paper. You can also make test strip of film plus base fog to determine your black exposure. That can be helpful.

 

[MattKing]

You are thinking of the filters as if they determine which tones you see in the print. That isn't how it works.
What they do is affect how the different emulsion components add density on top of each other.
You can achieve an absolutely full black with just the 00 filter. Its just that the print will be really blah, because the other tones will be too dark as well.
The 5 filter gets the dark parts of the scene to full black quicker, leaving the lighter tones still behind.

 

[MattKing]

On the 2.5 vs. 5 question, how old are your filters.
The 5 filters in particular fade over time.