Computer as support in the darkroom

Ian Grant · Aug 24, 2013

I'd prefer to see something independent of existing manufacturers. This is a software application than can control a USB relay controller so potentially far more flexible than existing products.

Some think a computer shouldn't be in a darkroom but I can see there is great potential. Having said that I worked alongside one of the top industrial/advertising photographers in the West midlands (UK) and used to help out on his long print runs (typically hundreds of prints of a feww negatives) and was always amazed he didn't use an enlarger timer, and yet we'd get surprisingly consisten results.

There's a lot of potential in this project.

Ian

MartinP · Aug 24, 2013

If you want to code in C# but in a longer-lasting environment (due to the constant churn in the Microsoft applications and o/s) then look at Mono on a linux distribution. For example, Ubuntu has ready-to-go Mono software, with IDE and interpreter, for exactly this purpose. The code is "extremely" similar to C# (it is intended to be able to run C# directly). For a database you have a wide selection of open-source products, scalable to any size, though perhaps avoid MySQL currently as Oracle is a little unclear about it's future status.

Increasing numbers of people do not use Microsoft products at home. Starting off building an application with their tools will cause you a lot of amusement when the software you wrote needs to be modified to keep up with annual/biannual version changes.

Personally, I'd think that spending the time and effort on more printing would get you better results on paper, and more quickly, but can understand the attraction of producing your own application and tools.

PKM-25 · Aug 25, 2013

Seriously...?

This is like finding 4 decent tires and deciding to build the "Perfect" car around them, don't you want to enjoy the fact that this craft never has to see the use of a computer?

Knock your self out, but as an owner of two RH Designs StopClocks and a couple other of those brand of items who recently took a hands on printing workshop with an absolute master, I can honestly say that all any good printer really needs is a decent timer, simple metronome and experience. The rest is just fidgeting around and amounts to numerical distractions from doing the real work of becoming a better printer and a better photographer.

Even though there is a ton of value in getting down methods that provide you with consistent results, you are using materials that are best to get a "feel" for rather than get lost in the science of it all. I am somewhat sad to say that a lot of the work I see from other enthusiasts reflects the latter rather than the former.

The choice is yours, you can build a robot to play a guitar via your thought inputs or you can pick it up your self and play it with your own two hands...

J.Marks · Aug 25, 2013

Seems like a very very over complicated system. What happened to put neg in enlarger, test strip, develop, pick suitable time, test strip,, develop, print. Yes i use a lap top in my dark room, for ONLY recording my notes and time sequences, (ie: dev time, filter # etc.) I have fun in my darkroom I make all my decisions and make my prints my way.

Bill Burk · Aug 25, 2013

PKM-25 said:
I can honestly say that all any good printer really needs is a decent timer, simple metronome ...

Haa.. I need a compensating metronome... Right now instead, I use a constant-clicking-timer and try to maintain the resistance of a CDS cell during a printing session...

Dang, I left it on last night - the Beckman meter and Jobo minilux... wasted batteries.

jseidl, The software from Curt Palm was a boon to my darkroom productivity. One strength is its "one button" usability. When I use it, all I need is the number pad when the light is on (to enter times)... And during printing I only hit one key - the space bar...

So heed the call for simplification, if there is a way to make most necessary functions operate from the space bar. I know it would be hard to find a certain function key in the dark.

jseidl · Aug 25, 2013

MattKing said:
It would really be good if you could somehow combine your efforts with Darkroom Automation and Modern Enlarger Lamps to end up with a new source of Darkroom Automation's timer, and a better control for Modern Enlarger Lamps' LED replacement variable contrast heads.

As much as I would like to own such a device, I don't see this happening. This project was never meant to go "professional" or commercial in any way. In the end, if anything, it could provide a low cost alternative (just for the relay board) for people who would like to use a computer in the darkroom for this kind of stuff. And as Ian said, I think this leaves more room for people to customize the software to their specific needs.

jseidl · Aug 25, 2013

Bill Burk said:
jseidl, The software from Curt Palm was a boon to my darkroom productivity. One strength is its "one button" usability. When I use it, all I need is the number pad when the light is on (to enter times)... And during printing I only hit one key - the space bar...

So heed the call for simplification, if there is a way to make most necessary functions operate from the space bar. I know it would be hard to find a certain function key in the dark.

This is a position I completely understand. Usability was my great concern with the approach as well. As this program uses a GUI, the settings (times, f-stops, number of test strips, etc.) are all done with the mouse, number pad and drop down menus. However once the "start program" button was pushed, all that needs to be done is hit space or push the huge timer button on the bottom. If any settings have to be done, they can be done when the lights are on. With the strength of my darkroom light, the monitor glow and the mouse (which uses a red led) this was never necessary. All the hotkeys I need, are space for the timer and Esc to turn on/off the focus light.

Regarding the discussion around overcomplicating things, I think this is a general discussion regarding the necessity of automating things in the darkroom. Most of the programs features can be found in the more advanced darkroom stop clocks as well. The program basically just adds the possibility to store the data in a database. I'll make a short screencast showing the program in action this week. Maybe this clarifies a few things that are hard to describe with words.

Oh, and I don't think developing this software takes away time from me while I could get better as a photographer or darkroom printer. I don't photograph on the bus or do printing there If anything, it lead to me thinking a lot more about my printing approaches than I would have without it. Even with the risk of overthinking this stuff. So maybe "Way beyond monochrome "wasn't such a good choice after all for a beginner..

MattKing · Aug 25, 2013

"Way Beyond Monochrome" is a great choice for a beginner, because it gives you lots of examples of what a good print can look like, and some of the ways to get there.

And my post about those other resources was included to support your efforts by showing that there are gaps in the availability of useful darkroom aids.

You might also consider contacting both of them - they might be happy to assist and collaborate,

removed account4 · Aug 25, 2013

sounds like a fun idea !

Truzi · Aug 25, 2013

I can appreciate wanting to create (and actually creating) a computer program for this, as well as controller interfaces. I'd do something that was platform agnostic so it would run on any OS (I use Linux). However, for me it would be a fun project, but not something I'd use much past proof of concept. Someone into computers can take great joy in computerizing many things and seeing it work, just for the fun of it.

When the computer is down, however, one hopefully didn't become so used to it that they forgot how to do things manually.

Actually, I have toyed with the idea of automating the exposure and development of 4x6 prints. Sort of an home-made minilab. This would be for quick-and-dirty prints from a roll of film, but not for "good" prints. I'd do those by hand. My idea would also be mostly analog circuitry in case the computer failed, as well as manual over-ride in case the analog circuitry failed. Of course, this is all outside my skill-level in programming at the moment.

jseidl · Aug 25, 2013

MattKing said:
"Way Beyond Monochrome" is a great choice for a beginner, because it gives you lots of examples of what a good print can look like, and some of the ways to get there.

And my post about those other resources was included to support your efforts by showing that there are gaps in the availability of useful darkroom aids.

You might also consider contacting both of them - they might be happy to assist and collaborate,

Just in case this came across wrong, I highly appreciate your input. The software is just an early beta version at the moment. Not sure if I wouldn't be too far out of my league when getting in touch with those "pros". I'll definitely give them a shout once I know where the project is heading.

Oh and I love "Way Beyond Monochrome"! As I learn this stuff from scratch, I wanted to do it properly from the start. It's hard for me to judge what are really essential techniques and what's just unnecessary baggage. Discussions here and at the public darkroom I attend from time to time really help a lot with learning things.

jseidl · Aug 25, 2013

Truzi said:
When the computer is down, however, one hopefully didn't become so used to it that they forgot how to do things manually.

I fully agree!

HowieP · Aug 25, 2013

Hi, If you think you need suxh a complex program, or even think you don't need it but feel more comfortable with it, more power to you and I hope you get beautiful prints as a result. I can tell you that, with experience, your movements in the darkroom become more adherent to muscle memory and , as a result, you will make less careless errors and the errors will become less egregious. I do basically all the things you do via the program except its all in my head and in the notes that I record on the back of my contact sheet. Before I undertake a darkroom action, I take a few seconds and go through the various steps of exposing, burning, dodging, filtration changes, etc. and, much more often than not, all goes according to plan. Sometimes I have to throw a paper away; that's about the worst of it. I'm usually pretty satisfied with my efforts and they are repeatable. But good luck with your efforts. Maybe you will get less formal as time goes on, or not. Just enjoy yourself and keep trying to become more perfect.

jp498 · Aug 25, 2013

You non-programmers are judging this from a user perspective, not a programmer perspective. The user perspective to using a computer in the darkroom is "take the thinking out printing and make an idiot punching buttons on the computer". Programming is about a desire to understand a process thoroughly, and use the computer to help that process. It requires learning about the process of printing rather than ignoring them. It's about the brains of it rather than the computing idiot.

I don't program, but went to college for it. It taught much ingenuity, teamwork, and problem solving skills that I use regularly in all sorts of situations.

clayne · Aug 25, 2013

Here's the issue: the darkroom is only part science and heavily about feeling, art, and the experience. You want less cerebral activities and more innate feel with the materials at a certain point. A large amount of printers couldn't imagine punching in a bunch of numbers for any significant period of time and just want to get to the actual exposing, dodging/burning, and development phases. I know even having to calculate dodge/burn times is annoying enough that sometimes I just freehand a large amount of it. Having to think, excessively, greatly brushes up against the dangerous border of Thinking Too Much.

E. von Hoegh · Aug 26, 2013

jp498 said:
You non-programmers are judging this from a user perspective, not a programmer perspective. The user perspective to using a computer in the darkroom is "take the thinking out printing and make an idiot punching buttons on the computer". Programming is about a desire to understand a process thoroughly, and use the computer to help that process. It requires learning about the process of printing rather than ignoring them. It's about the brains of it rather than the computing idiot.

I don't program, but went to college for it. It taught much ingenuity, teamwork, and problem solving skills that I use regularly in all sorts of situations.

The one problem with the OP writing a computer program is that he is not an experienced expert printer, yet. If he likes programming, great - and more power to him. But he'll be better served by learning how to get the print he wants, then writing the program.

jseidl · Aug 27, 2013

As I said, I made a short screencast showing how I use the software. I don't think it's over automated and basically is only a couple of convenience features if you already know what you are doing. It certainly is no sort of "Silver Efex" for the drakroom.
http://youtu.be/nTrkDpHdq8o

After some comments here, I thought a lot about the suitable approach for me to become a better printer. I don't see how the pure act of setting the timer manually further helps me learning the basic process (which I think I have already burned into my long term memory after all the test runs). I don't see how taking notes by hand on paper in contrast to having the computer record them for me does help me in learning the stuff better. I don't think having an process timer that rings an alarm when it's time to move paper to the next tray will stop me from knowing the process of developing the print. Whnever I try something new, I do that fully manually at first anyway.
I do think that the most important part is envisioning the final print. Having more time to focus on the way to get there and "working" the print with all the burning, dodging, bleaching, toning, etc. will ultimately be a better investment of my limited time.
As always, YMMV and I respect these opinions.

My 7 year old son started taking pictures now. I gave him my old DSLR (yeah, I know.. ) and set it to full auto. This should help him to focus on the most important parts IMO in photography: "Good" composing of the picture, having fun and getting pictures he is proud of. When he's outgrown the auto mode, we'll gradually find suitable manual options for him (aperture priority, exposure correction, full manual mode, using film, pinhole camera, wet plate photography, ... ). The other way around may prove to be too discouraging for me, ... erm ... him.

Cheers, Josh

David Brown · Aug 27, 2013

jseidl said:
I don't see how the pure act of setting the timer manually further helps me learning the basic process (which I think I have already burned into my long term memory after all the test runs). I don't see how taking notes by hand on paper in contrast to having the computer record them for me does help me in learning the stuff better. I don't think having an process timer that rings an alarm when it's time to move paper to the next tray will stop me from knowing the process of developing the print. Whnever I try something new, I do that fully manually at first anyway.

Then you're fine. You don't need our affirmation.

jseidl · Aug 27, 2013

David Brown said:
Then you're fine. You don't need our affirmation.

No, but you guys made me thoroughly rethink what I do and how I do it. That's always a good thing. And I wholeheartedly thank all of you with much more experience for your feedback.

jon.oman · Aug 27, 2013

I have found this discussion interesting. I would be interested in getting a copy of your C# code to play with. I would like to investigate it more.

Steve Smith · Aug 28, 2013

jseidl said:
Ive started to develop a little C# program.

Can you do it in any other keys?!!

Steve.

jseidl · Aug 28, 2013

Steve Smith said:
Can you do it in any other keys?!!

Steve.

Tried it in F minor, but the prints all came out way too dark..

jseidl · Aug 28, 2013

jon.oman said:
I have found this discussion interesting. I would be interested in getting a copy of your C# code to play with. I would like to investigate it more.

I'll try to set up a project page somewhere, if I can find a free hoster. Before having someone else have a look at the code, I'll have to do quite some cleaning up there. As I kept adding stuff as I went along, I ended up with some serious spaghetti code, redundancies, only very basic error checking etc. I'd be too embarrassed if someone saw it like that.. May take a while though, as I'll be on vacations from Friday for weeks. And I plan to spend that time with the family and in the darkroom.

clayne · Aug 28, 2013

Well if you have the family in the darkroom you should be able to offload any calculations on them.

jseidl · Aug 28, 2013

I can't. They already have to change filters when I do split grade printing. ;-)

Computer as support in the darkroom

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