colour analyzer, can I use it?

[Berri]

I do my colour printing with filters because I don't have a colour enlarger. Can I still use a colour analyzer, or do I need a colour head first?
I'm quite good at guessing a good filtration in a few tests but I'd like some aid for when I want to be fast at expense of precision!

 

[Johnkpap]

Yes you can, the one I use is a Colorstar, they were sold through JOBO the newer models have 100 memory's they are easy to use and they can even be used for B&W but you need
to remove your filter pack, each time you take a reading ( my Durst has a white light lever)

They can be found for sale on auction sites

Regards

Johnkpap

 

[markbarendt]

Yes you can use one.

The type of head is irrelevant.

 

[Berri]

I figured it works by comparing a negative for which i know the exact filtration. For example if I have my standard negative at C0Y25M40 do I have to dial it in the analyzer? Then when I want to make a print from an unknown negative (different roll, different emulsion type) what do I do?

 

[markbarendt]

So you use your reference negative to "zero" your color meter. That setting becomes your meter's 'standard setting' for that paper.

After that you adjust the filters to match that.

 

[Johnkpap]

Most Good Analyzers have a Master paper channel and a number of film channels

When you change rolls or batch you do a test print with a known neg Eg a "Betty Neg" on your master channel and adjust it the analyzer should then adjust the film channels accordingly

regards

Johnkpap

 

[RPC]

When determining the filtration for a negative, the filters do not have to be in the enlarger. You can lay them right on top of the analyzer's probe.

 

[Berri]

Ok thank you guys, I think I'll give one a go! One more thing, I mostly use ektar and portrait, do I need a reference neg for each emulsion type?

 

[markbarendt]

In a perfect world, no.

The meter is meant to respond to light like the paper does. You will have settings for each paper you use and the filters you use adjust the light coming from the negative to match what the paper 'needs' for the right colors and exposure.

 

[Berri]

ok cool, I got it! So all I need to do is calibrate it for every batch of paper I buy. I buy in rolls, so it should be constant from start to finish. Thank you guys!

 

[Berri]

I found an Omega SCA100 for 30€ or a Color Star 2000 for 50€ which is a timer as well but there is a piece missing on top of the three knobs on the left side, is that thing important?. What do you think, considering I'll be using it with CP filters?

 

[RPC]

My experience is that you need to have a program for each film type. The paper and analyzer do not see exactly the same; the response of the probe cannot be made identical to the paper. This means that if you program the analyzer with one type of film, and try to analyze another type, there will likely be errors. This is because the spectral response of the paper does not see the spectral characteristics of the dyes in each film the same as the spectral response of the probe. Therefore a program is needed for each film. Many analyzer users are unaware of this and explains why there have been many frustrated users of analyzers, including myself until I learned this. At the lab I work at we once used video analyzers for color film, and there, we too had a program for each film type. If you failed to change the program for a given film, the printed results would be off color, even though it looked good on the video screen!

 

[Berri]

My experience is that you need to have a program for each film type. The paper and analyzer do not see exactly the same; the response of the probe cannot be made identical to the paper. This means that if you program the analyzer with one type of film, and try to analyze another type, there will likely be errors. This is because the spectral response of the paper does not see the spectral characteristics of the dyes in each film the same as the spectral response of the probe. Therefore a program is needed for each film. Many analyzer users are unaware of this and explains why there have been many frustrated users of analyzers, including myself until I learned this. At the lab I work at we once used video analyzers for color film, and there, we too had a program for each film type. If you failed to change the program for a given film, the printed results would be off color, even though it looked good on the video screen!

I downloaded the manual for ColorStar 2000 and it doesn't say that. I value your your experience, but why the manual would suggest to calibrate just when you are in the need of changing paper batch?

 

[pentaxuser]

For many years now individual boxes of paper that I have used did not carry any "offset" code so that each box could be separately calibrated. I wonder if the Colourstar say this because its instructions go back to the time when each box did come with an "offset" code.

I'd try sticking to one type of paper and producing the "perfect" print from a properly processed negative that has a range of colours including a neutral grey and where no one colour predominates, then calibrate the analyser from the correct Y and M filters and use those settings for analysing other negatives.

Most analysers work on the above principle. What analyser have you got?

Just be aware that if you have a negative where say one colour predominates such as a portrait shot of someone in a red jumper and red trousers then most analysers will be fooled into producing a print with at least a slight colour cast but the filter setting the analyser will recommend will be close enough for you to know how much adjust the filters

pentaxuser

 

[sfaber17]

I found an Omega SCA100 for 30€ or a Color Star 2000 for 50€ which is a timer as well but there is a piece missing on top of the three knobs on the left side, is that thing important?. What do you think, considering I'll be using it with CP filters?

I would get the Color Star assuming it has a good probe. I think that bar across the top of the 3 knobs is not critical. The 3 knobs are a module that can be pulled out so you can use more than one. As long as that module is there and adjustable, you should be OK. That omega is worth about $10.

 

[Berri]

For many years now individual boxes of paper that I have used did not carry any "offset" code so that each box could be separately calibrated. I wonder if the Colourstar say this because its instructions go back to the time when each box did come with an "offset" code.

the instruction suggest a procedure to follow each time you swap to a different batch of paper even if it is of the same kind. I doesn't say anything about "offset" code.
To calibrate for your paper I would have to produce a good print from a negative I know it produces good print with no effort. Then, without the negative but the filtration still on I satrt rotating the yellow dial until the yellow leds are all off. I do the same with magenta and ultimatelly with the "S" knob until the display reads the exact same exposure time I used to produce the test print. Now the system should be calibrated and ready to read the values from an unknown negative. The manual also says you have several different methods for using the probe correctly, depending on the negative you intend to print. One is spot reading that should be done if the frame has some neutral grey areas or skin tones, another one is "part integral" which consist in reading the projected iomage in an area with mixed colours so it resambles a grey area. with this method you shouldnt place the probe on high saturated areas or the print'll be off (but you can correct accordingly, basically insead of "nulling" the Y/M/C leds you light them up a little in order to produce the same colour of the area you are reading, for example if you place it in the sky you select a filterpack that produce 4 leds of M and 4 Leds of Cyan (M+C=B) but you should use this method only if no other procedures are feasable)
The other method is the "full integral". You read the projection at 5cm from the lens. This method should work with medium density negs with not too many saturated and contrasty colours. It is my understanding that at the end of this reading procedure the analyzer should automatically determine the better exposure time and you just press "expose" to start exposing your paper.

 

[pentaxuser]

It was my experience that if it was the same type of paper and the analyser had been correctly calibrated for a perfect print from that type of paper then there was no need to re-calbrate each time I opened a new box. You might want to try a print with the same settings when you open a new box to see if the new print is OK with the same filtration as it was for the same negative when you printed from the old box.This will be a useful test to see if the paper does change from box to box. I never noticed a change but you may see a change

Les us know if you find that re-calibration for each box is necessary

pentaxuser

 

[Berri]

It was my experience that if it was the same type of paper and the analyser had been correctly calibrated for a perfect print from that type of paper then there was no need to re-calbrate each time I opened a new box. You might want to try a print with the same settings when you open a new box to see if the new print is OK with the same filtration as it was for the same negative when you printed from the old box.This will be a useful test to see if the paper does change from box to box. I never noticed a change but you may see a change

Les us know if you find that re-calibration for each box is necessary

pentaxuser

Exactly, the instruction manual suggests you to re-print the standard neg with the usual settings and see if you need to correct. The ammount of correction possibly needed could be determined through the printed paper, but I haven't quite understood it

 

[RPC]

I downloaded the manual for ColorStar 2000 and it doesn't say that. I value your your experience, but why the manual would suggest to calibrate just when you are in the need of changing paper batch?

I own a Beseler PM2L and the manual doesn't say anything about it either. It just tells you how to program and analyze. I think it is an issue that they would rather you not fully be aware of. Yet some of the more advanced models actually have modules for different film programs. I learned about the issue only from reading about using analyzers over the years and user's problems with them. When I started video analyzing having different film programs was no surprise to me, because of my knowledge about it. If you look at the spectral responses of papers and the spectral characteristics of filters used, you will see a difference. Because of this, results may be close with different films but not precise enough for consistent results unless the same film is programmed and analyzed.

 

[wiltw]

I figured it works by comparing a negative for which i know the exact filtration. For example if I have my standard negative at C0Y25M40 do I have to dial it in the analyzer? Then when I want to make a print from an unknown negative (different roll, different emulsion type) what do I do?

The problem with color analyzers is that it assumes that
a) you wish to recreate a color patch consistently in color balance or
b) a negative always combines all of its colors to the same blend -- which is seldom true!

A color analyzer helps you to go from Paper Batch A to Paper Batch B relatively easily, in the context of using a single Master neg to accomplish A or B filtration. If we assume that each batch of paper has its own correction values provided with the batch of paper. For example, if Paper A says 0Y 15M 0C, and Paper B says 0Y 20M 5C, you know that the correction from paper A to paper B is to add 5M and 5C to your standard pack for your Master neg. So although your enlarger's dialed in values may be a bit off, you put 5M and 5C as correction values into the analyzer, then dial your enlarger values until the analyzer says Null and you know that is exactly the amount added by the dichroic head. With filters (assuming your filters might have faded with age), you add filtration sufficient to achieve Null -- with new filters, you simply add the filter values that had been calculated (5M and 5C)

But it does not help you to get color pack 1 for neg 1 and then obtain a different color pack 2 for negative 2 -- unless both Neg 1 and Neg 2 have the same color patch in both negs to match up to the same color and tone. If neg 1 has less Green content in the scene than neg 2 because it has more grass in the scene, the analyzer used in integration mode will not help you!

 

[markbarendt]

I own a Beseler PM2L and the manual doesn't say anything about it either. It just tells you how to program and analyze. I think it is an issue that they would rather you not fully be aware of. Yet some of the more advanced models actually have modules for different film programs. I learned about the issue only from reading about using analyzers over the years and user's problems with them. When I started video analyzing having different film programs was no surprise to me, because of my knowledge about it. If you look at the spectral responses of papers and the spectral characteristics of filters used, you will see a difference. Because of this, results may be close with different films but not precise enough for consistent results unless the same film is programmed and analyzed.

So, two thoughts:

1) The paper doesn't change. A given exposure, to a given color of light, will create a given color on the paper. It's pretty much that simple. The problem is that you really only get to choose 1 reference point to get perfect, the rest may be close but will be a compromise to some degree. We can nail say, the color and tone of a gray card, that was included in the scene but the rest of the tones and colors may not land perfectly. If we want a warmer tone to the print we can nail the yellows better but the true gray will shift and become more yellow too.

The color meter provides a way to get one basic color and tone right, much of the time this will bring the rest of the print along 'plenty good'.

2) Second with regard to differing film programs, I'll suggest that Superia and Portra, for example, are supposed to have different pallets/color balances/looks. They are naturally supposed to produce different results. What doesn't necessarily change is our preferences for the colors we want/expect. We can 'nail' gray card gray with either but the whites and blues and yellows may then look different.

Given that color palette difference, we may want different programs for different films. Not me, because not only do films differ, but scenes differ. The color balance is fully dependent on the colors in the scene.

Given all the variables, I don't bother with profiling each film, instead I understand that the meter can't get me to perfect, it can get me in the ballpark.

 

[Berri]

So, two thoughts:

1) The paper doesn't change. A given exposure, to a given color of light, will create a given color on the paper. It's pretty much that simple. The problem is that you really only get to choose 1 reference point to get perfect, the rest may be close but will be a compromise to some degree. We can nail say, the color and tone of a gray card, that was included in the scene but the rest of the tones and colors may not land perfectly. If we want a warmer tone to the print we can nail the yellows better but the true gray will shift and become more yellow too.

The color meter provides a way to get one basic color and tone right, much of the time this will bring the rest of the print along 'plenty good'.

2) Second with regard to differing film programs, I'll suggest that Superia and Portra, for example, are supposed to have different pallets/color balances/looks. They are naturally supposed to produce different results. What doesn't necessarily change is our preferences for the colors we want/expect. We can 'nail' gray card gray with either but the whites and blues and yellows may then look different.

Given that color palette difference, we may want different programs for different films. Not me, because not only do films differ, but scenes differ. The color balance is fully dependent on the colors in the scene.

Given all the variables, I don't bother with profiling each film, instead I understand that the meter can't get me to perfect, it can get me in the ballpark.

that's exactly what I was thinking. In fact I said at the beginning that I need some aid when I want to produce many prints quickly without wasteing time or paper of course this will be at expense of perfect colour balance. I noticed already by printing without any device that scenes matters more than different films in term of colour balance. Also I not necessarely want the grey card to be perfectly grey depending on the subject or scene

 

[Berri]

in this example you can see what I mean. I photographed this scen on Kodak Gold 200, same roll, same camera, same lens. These are scan from the negative. For the first one I corrected the colour to balance the grey card, if apply the same correction to the scene I ment to photograph I get the second frame, which is good in terms of grey but I don't like the rest of the colours and the general mood. the wall behind is actually cyan/green and it probably casted some reflection from the flash to the subject. From here I would increase both M and Y quite a bit to obtain something similar to the third frame.

 

[Mick Fagan]

I have the original Colorstar, which is quite basic compared to the later 2000 model you are considering.

You should also get the probe, with the adjustable angle probe, which although not a requirement, is very handy. My unit does not have the adjustable angle probe, instead I angle the probe by hand, not perfect, but very good.

Any of the Colorstar analysers are the best in the business. They are, to the best of my knowledge, the only colour analyser that does all three colours at once. This feature alone, is worth its weight in gold for analysing colour

They are very simple to use and very accurate.

I have used some very expensive colour analysers in an industrial photo lab, but had an easier and better experience in my home darkroom with my Colorstar analyser.

My suggestion is to find a Wallace Expo Disc, place that on the end of your lens, point the lens towards the light source. Put the camera onto automatic, take a shot. Then take any amount of pictures in that light and with that film. The Expo Disc makes a perfect grey card negative.

In the darkroom, find an image you like on that roll of film, then get a perfect colour print. Then without changing anything, place the Wallace Expo Disc negative into the enlarger, place the Colorstar analyser probe in the centre of the projected grey. Turn the lights off, then adjust the Colorstar sliders or wheels (different models) until all the lights go out. Then adjust the time on the analyser until it is the same as your time for your perfect print negative.

Your analyser is now perfectly calibrated.

Next time you are out, place the Wallace Expo Disc on the camera, take an automatic exposure towards the light source.

Develop the film.

Place the grey Expo Disc negative in the enlarger, turn the lights off. Place the probe into the projected area, switch the enlarger on, the darkroom lights off, then adjust the enlarger until all of the Colorstar lights go out. The Colorstar will also give you an exposure time, which will usually be very close, if not on the money. Take any negative shot under that lighting, and, apart from density change (enlarging time), you should have a correct colour picture.

Please note; you use two filters in the enlarger head, Yellow and Magenta. The third colour, Cyan, is not used. Less Cyan equals more red, more Cyan equals more Cyan. In colour printing, the third colour is obtained by exposure. If you are extremely close in correct colour, the darker you print, the more red the print will be. The lighter you print, the more Cyan (or less red) the print will be.

I would have any of the Colorstar analysers, except the very last model. Which as far as I know, was not a product made by Lici.

The 2000 analyser is a great unit, about the best in the business.

Some thoughts Mick.

 

[Berri]

I have the original Colorstar, which is quite basic compared to the later 2000 model you are considering.

You should also get the probe, with the adjustable angle probe, which although not a requirement, is very handy. My unit does not have the adjustable angle probe, instead I angle the probe by hand, not perfect, but very good.

Any of the Colorstar analysers are the best in the business. They are, to the best of my knowledge, the only colour analyser that does all three colours at once. This feature alone, is worth its weight in gold for analysing colour

They are very simple to use and very accurate.

I have used some very expensive colour analysers in an industrial photo lab, but had an easier and better experience in my home darkroom with my Colorstar analyser.

My suggestion is to find a Wallace Expo Disc, place that on the end of your lens, point the lens towards the light source. Put the camera onto automatic, take a shot. Then take any amount of pictures in that light and with that film. The Expo Disc makes a perfect grey card negative.

In the darkroom, find an image you like on that roll of film, then get a perfect colour print. Then without changing anything, place the Wallace Expo Disc negative into the enlarger, place the Colorstar analyser probe in the centre of the projected grey. Turn the lights off, then adjust the Colorstar sliders or wheels (different models) until all the lights go out. Then adjust the time on the analyser until it is the same as your time for your perfect print negative.

Your analyser is now perfectly calibrated.

Next time you are out, place the Wallace Expo Disc on the camera, take an automatic exposure towards the light source.

Develop the film.

Place the grey Expo Disc negative in the enlarger, turn the lights off. Place the probe into the projected area, switch the enlarger on, the darkroom lights off, then adjust the enlarger until all of the Colorstar lights go out. The Colorstar will also give you an exposure time, which will usually be very close, if not on the money. Take any negative shot under that lighting, and, apart from density change (enlarging time), you should have a correct colour picture.

Please note; you use two filters in the enlarger head, Yellow and Magenta. The third colour, Cyan, is not used. Less Cyan equals more red, more Cyan equals more Cyan. In colour printing, the third colour is obtained by exposure. If you are extremely close in correct colour, the darker you print, the more red the print will be. The lighter you print, the more Cyan (or less red) the print will be.

I would have any of the Colorstar analysers, except the very last model. Which as far as I know, was not a product made by Lici.

The 2000 analyser is a great unit, about the best in the business.

Some thoughts Mick.

thanks so much for your detailed replay! I didn't know of the existence of this expo disc...I'll look into it. I know that Cyan is usually never touched, I do colour printing already, but in some case I had to filter with C&M in order to get decent white balance. This happened with cross processed negative. and pushed negatives. I guess it would be more correct saying "only use two filters at time as using 3 would increase ND, Cyan is rarely used"