Cloudy negetives with TF-4 fixer

[Tumbles]

This is a weird one that I don't know what to make of. I recently got a bottle of TF-4 fixer to use with Pyrocat. The first two rolls of film (TMax 400) that I used it on came out good, while the next two rolls came out cloudly. I tried re-fixing it and that didn't make any difference. Both times were for 6 minutes.

I made sure the concentrate was mixed up before I added it to distilled water (1:3). I tested the pH before and after I used it, and both times it came out around 8.5. Also, I used a water stop bath.

This isn't making any sense to me. I can't see where it went wrong. The photo shows film from the first and second batch.

 

[Disconnekt]

Yeah, seems weird for that to happen. You should talk to @Photo Engineer about this, hopefully he'll be able to help figue out what happened.

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

With that fixer, you must mix the whole bottle at once. If you try to mix small amounts at a time, by measuring the amount needed for one tank of film for example, then you might not have the component chemicals there in the right proportions, even if you shook up the concentrate bottle to disperse the solids in it before mixing.

 

[koraks]

Whatever happened, the yellow tint to the cloudiness suggests that fixing was incomplete.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It does appear to be a fixing problem. You cannot mix TF-4 in small batches, but you can mix TF-5 in small batches. That was one of the design goals.

However, I must ask what kind of film you used and if you used a water stop, did you change it after every roll? This fixer is sensitive to developer carryover.

PE

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Tried it once but too expensive to bring up here, so I've been getting by with Ilford's rapid fix. It works great. Been using this combination for almost 20 years. Cheers!

 

[Born2Late]

I too use TF-4, mix small batches and use a water stop. With the exception of 1 roll, I've always had great results. The 1 exception was a roll of 120 format as it appears to be your case too. I'll look it up to see what brand it was; maybe it is related to a specific emultion.

 

[Born2Late]

Just a thought; did you by chance reuse the Pyrocat?

 

[Tumbles]

I went and mixed up the entire bottle of fixer, and processed two new rolls of film (also Tmax 400). The results came out good. Strangely, I re-fixed the cloudy negatives and it made no difference. I hope it doesn't cause any problems scanning.

The first time I did reuse the stop bath. It would be hard to make the mistake of reusing the developer. Tmax 400 turns Pyrocat dark purple.

 

[DREW WILEY]

No need to dilute the whole thing at once. With new bottles of TF4 you have a lot of sediment settled at the bottom, just like a can of paint. Pour off some of the liquid (save it !). Then put a wooden dowel in the bottle and stir the sediment loose. Then put the cap back on and invert the bottle back and forth until all the sediment is dissolved. Then pour back in the remaining liquid and shake it up a bit more until it's all consistent. Later on, with a partially empty bottle, just shake it a bit. And if you're using TF4 in tanks, stir the solution slightly before the film goes in. Incidentally, I never reuse TF4; nor have I ever had an issue with it. Completely predictable for me; and I've used quite a few pyro formulas.

 

[Rudeofus]

Strangely, I re-fixed the cloudy negatives and it made no difference.

Just to be 100% sure: with the term "cloudy", do you really mean some form of translucency (think: frosted glass), or is the film actually clear but has some non-trivial density (thing: color filter) ? The first would be caused by an ineffective fixer and can be corrected with another fixer run, the latter would be caused by a defective but basically working fixer and could most likely not be corrected. The latter case would also not be that big of a deal during enlarging/scanning, as long as it is uniform.

 

[Photo Engineer]

No need to dilute the whole thing at once. With new bottles of TF4 you have a lot of sediment settled at the bottom, just like a can of paint. Pour off some of the liquid (save it !). Then put a wooden dowel in the bottle and stir the sediment loose. Then put the cap back on and invert the bottle back and forth until all the sediment is dissolved. Then pour back in the remaining liquid and shake it up a bit more until it's all consistent. Later on, with a partially empty bottle, just shake it a bit. And if you're using TF4 in tanks, stir the solution slightly before the film goes in. Incidentally, I never reuse TF4; nor have I ever had an issue with it. Completely predictable for me; and I've used quite a few pyro formulas.

I would not use this method Drew. It has a chance of coming out wrong.

PE

 

[DREW WILEY]

I've only done it thousands of times, Ron, with 100% success. I use TF4 for all my fixer needs. No harder than stirring a can of paint.

 

[Photo Engineer]

As you say. It will work until it doesn't.

PE

 

[DREW WILEY]

I even have a 316 stainless lab style bung-hole stirrer if I need it. But I don't. Even the attached instructions from Formulary recommend agitation. Diluting the whole gallon of concentrate into four gallons for use all at once won't solve the problem of settling. It still need to be regularly stirred. Allegedly that is less of an issue with TF5 than TF4.

 

[Tumbles]

I'm just wondering, is there any way to wash out the cloudiness? I cut off a strip from the end of the roll, and left it in Ilford rapid fixer over night just to see what would happen, and it didn't make any difference.

 

[koraks]

It depends on the nature of the cloudiness, which exact chemical it is. My guess is it's probably silver sulfide and then you're out of luck.

 

[David Lyga]

Whatever happened, the yellow tint to the cloudiness suggests that fixing was incomplete.

I second and third and fourth what Koraks said. - David Lyga