Cinestill DF96 monobath

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Huss

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I just messed up a roll of Babylon by trying to develop it in DF96 that already had 16 rolls pass through it. With no issues. But #17 was it - the film was underdeveloped - not even the exposed leader (from when you load the camera) was sufficiently dark.
A bit disappointing as Cinestill claims 16+ rolls. And I have managed to get up to 18 before per batch but going forward I will pull the plug at 16. Not worth losing another $8 roll of film..
p.s. that batch of DF96 was started in the beginning of August - so just over a month old (and 16 rolls of film).
 
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@Huss:
You can always do a clip test before pouring the monobath into the tank. Clip test will save you from losing the roll if the monobath is already dead or dying.

Also if you are using a Patterson or similar tank, you can keep the exposed film leader in the space between the outer lid and the funnel. Inspect this piece of film after the monobath processing. If it doesn't have sufficient density then your film might need to be salvaged. A short development in a regular developer or fresh monobath might help salvage the film.
 

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@Huss:Also if you are using a Patterson or similar tank, you can keep the exposed film leader in the space between the outer lid and the funnel. Inspect this piece of film after the monobath processing. If it doesn't have sufficient density then your film might need to be salvaged. A short development in a regular developer or fresh monobath might help salvage the film.

Sadly, this "salvage" won't work with monobath. Because the soup develops and fixes concurrently, the only "salvage" available is additional fixing. Film that's underdeveloped in a monobath can't be fixed, because it's already been fixed, so to speak.

For my own work, I think Df96 and other monobaths will be relegated to special cases. I'm likely to mix up a batch to take along for a vacation at the beach -- small Paterson tank, one bottle, liter graduate, thermometer, and a tiny bottle of PhotoFlo concentrate, changing bag, some scissors and a few negative pages, and I can shoot film on the sand for as long as my back holds out (RB67 kit plus heavy tripod). Sixteen rolls in a week would be a bunch for me, two rolls a day plus a couple...
 
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Sadly, this "salvage" won't work with monobath. Because the soup develops and fixes concurrently, the only "salvage" available is additional fixing. Film that's underdeveloped in a monobath can't be fixed, because it's already been fixed, so to speak.

If the monobath has fully fixed the film while it is in the bath then obviously there's no way to salvage the film. However, towards its end, the fixer component of the monobath is also likely to have exhausted or weakened significantly. In such cases, salvage may be possible to some extent. Of course, nothing is guaranteed. It's wise to do a clip test before putting the film into the monobath.
 
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@Huss:
You can always do a clip test before pouring the monobath into the tank. Clip test will save you from losing the roll if the monobath is already dead or dying.

Yup, that is what I should have done. I'll do that going forward after roll # 16, because all three batches so far have been perfect through roll 16.
 
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For my own work, I think Df96 and other monobaths will be relegated to special cases.

A reusable generic monobath such as DF96 offers a lot of convenience and gives acceptable results, at least for scanning, for several films as evident from this thread. I was wondering if there's any film for which the monobath produces truly remarkable results that wouldn't be easily possible to get with regular developers. One of the lomo films, was it a Svema ortho film, seemed promising going by the pictures shared.
 
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Donald Qualls

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I was wondering if there's any film for which the monobath produces truly remarkable results that wouldn't be easily possible to get with regular developers.

I think it fairly unlikely. The product designation Df96 makes it seem Cinestill intended their monobath to simulate D-96 (even though they used phenidone rather than metol), and if they hit their mark, then D-96 and a separate rapid fixer ought to generally produce as good or better results compared to Df96 -- if only because you have independent control of time/temp and agitation, and don't have to try to control a race between development and fixing. Even if the developer component isn't just a phenidone-substituted version of D-96, there is such a bewildering array of developer formulae that calling any one "best" for some one particular film is just a way to start an argument.

What Df96 does better than any other product I know of is put all the chemicals you need to process B&W film (aside from a wetting agent for the end of the wash) into a single bottle, let you pour them all at once from a single graduate, and offset loss of activity as it exhausts by exhausting the fixer and developer at about the same rate. There are a couple other monobaths on the market -- Famous Format (formerly New55) sells a couple, one that's an evolutionary follow-on to one I threw together back in 2003-2004. I haven't seen any information about controlling contrast (i.e. pushing and pulling) with theirs, nor the extensive list of tested films and expected speeds in "normal" process that Cinestill provides. As well, I haven't seen any option to get the Famous Format monobaths in dry form -- which saves significantly (both purchase price and shipping cost) over the premixed, as well as arriving sooner if you buy from them because it doesn't have to be shipped ground.

On the other hand, with its limited use (roughly sixteen rolls if you shoot enough, less if it takes you more than a couple months to use it that many times), Df96 is anything but a cheap way to process film. Yes, much cheaper than sending it out, but nearly any one-shot or replenished dedicated developer and reusable fixer will cost less per roll to use. To pick an example I've just started, Xtol use 1+2 costs something like 30 cents a roll and basic rapid fixer is less than that (if you mix your own fixer from pool chlorine reducer, it's really cheap) -- but if you replenish your Xtol, you cut that cost almost in half (more than half as soon as you start your second 5L pack and don't have to dedicate a liter or two for working solution). Home mixed developers can be even less than that; even without access to Costco discount/bulk pricing for acetaminophen (paracetamol), and having to buy lye from Amazon because local stores don't seem to carry it any more, I can mix Parodinal (exact Rodinal work-alike) and get costs of about half the best replenished Xtol can do. Replenished Mytol likely runs close to Parodinal, if not a little lower (depends what you pay for phenidone and sodium ascorbate).

What it all boils down to is that Df96 is best at really only one thing: getting people into (or back into) processing film with a minimum investment in infrastructure. Changing bag, small or medium Paterson tank, jug or bag of Df96, bottle of PhotoFlo or equivalent, a package of negative pages and some clips to hang the film, plus a shoestring to hang it from. Everything else can be added on later if you like it, or when you have more space and time. It's convenient for travel processing, in some cases, but the Ilford/Tetenal sachets might well do a better job, are cheaper for just a few rolls, and take up less space in luggage.
 
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Huss

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So Arista EDU Ultra 200 turned DF96 bright blue. Washing the film in regular water before developing it is ok to get rid of this blue dye?
 
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So Arista EDU Ultra 200 turned DF96 bright blue. Washing the film in regular water before developing it is ok to get rid of this blue dye?

It is probably rebranded Fompan film. No harm in giving it a pre-wash but some water absorbed by the film will seep into your monobath. If you develop this film regularly in the monobath, then it will progressively dilute the monobath.
 

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So Arista EDU Ultra 200 turned DF96 bright blue. Washing the film in regular water before developing it is ok to get rid of this blue dye?

It is probably rebranded Fompan film. No harm in giving it a pre-wash but some water absorbed by the film will seep into your monobath. If you develop this film regularly in the monobath, then it will progressively dilute the monobath.

It's been well established (by the blue dye, backing paper, etc.) that .EDU Ultra films are Fomapan confectioned for Freestyle. The blue dye won't do any harm in the Df96; nor will the amount of water that would carry over from a prewash -- you're only going to use the Df96 for 16 or so rolls, that won't result in enough dilution to be an issue. If you were using Diafine and expecting the Bath A to last years or need to be topped up periodically with fresh solution, it would be another issue, but in a limited life process like Df96 (or D76 stock with time compensation, for that matter) the amount of carry over and the number of times you'll use it make this a non-issue.

I will warn, however, that .EDU Ultra/Fomapan 400 needs to be either exposed at EI 200 or processed as "Push +1" in Df96, else you'll get thin negatives. Doesn't seem to be a problem with the Fomapan 100, though.
 
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It is probably rebranded Fompan film. No harm in giving it a pre-wash but some water absorbed by the film will seep into your monobath. If you develop this film regularly in the monobath, then it will progressively dilute the monobath.

Yeah, that was what I was thinking too. Thanks for the confirmation.
 
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nor will the amount of water that would carry over from a prewash -- you're only going to use the Df96 for 16 or so rolls, that won't result in enough dilution to be an issue.

That there'll be progressive dilution is irrefutable. Even assuming a conservative estimate of 5ml of carryover per roll, after ten or so rolls you would have added at least 50ml of water to the monobath. If the carryover is higher, say 10-15ml per roll, then the dilution is even more substantial. Whether or not this will cause harm can be answered only by testing. If you're giving assurance that dilution won't be an issue based on your experience with DF96, I certainly can't dispute it. However, if @Huss is facing monobath exhaustion at the end of 16th roll today, there's a chance that tomorrow he may discover to his horror that the monobath failed on 15th/16th roll itself due to the dilution. Of course a clip test before developing each roll can prevent the disaster.
 
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I will warn, however, that .EDU Ultra/Fomapan 400 needs to be either exposed at EI 200 or processed as "Push +1" in Df96, else you'll get thin negatives. Doesn't seem to be a problem with the Fomapan 100, though.

Yeah, I've heard that EDU 400 needs to be exposed at 200. I noticed that with the 35mm version too.

The film I just used was EDU/Fomapan 200. I shot it at box speed - 200 - developed normally and the negatives are nice and properly dense. So it seems that EDU 200 is as 'fast' as EDU 400!
 

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That there'll be progressive dilution is irrefutable. Even assuming a conservative estimate of 5ml of carryover per roll, after ten or so rolls you would have added at least 50ml of water to the monobath. If the carryover is higher, say 10-15ml per roll, then the dilution is even more substantial.

Sure, there will be dilution. I'm saying it's inconsequential compared to progressive exhaustion.

If you get the highest estimate you gave, 15 ml per roll (which seems high, if you're actually draining your tank), you'd have 225 ml of water added to the original 950 ml -- that wouldn't fit in the jug. Oh, but wait, you lose the same amount of (progressively more diluted) monobath, carried into the wash, over the same time. So your monobath volume remains the same, but a bit less than 20% (because volume losses lose water as well as monobath) of it is water.

But the fixer is diluted exactly as much as the developer, and the relative rates of fixing and development determine what you get as final contrast -- and that's determined mainly by temperature, and to a lesser extent by agitation. Dilution is just part of exhaustion.

Still, if it bothers you, then don't prewash; the monobath turning blue won't do any harm (and the sulfite in the stuff will mean it's a lot less blue than the prewash water would be).

Yeah, I've heard that EDU 400 needs to be exposed at 200. I noticed that with the 35mm version too.

The film I just used was EDU/Fomapan 200. I shot it at box speed - 200 - developed normally and the negatives are nice and properly dense. So it seems that EDU 200 is as 'fast' as EDU 400!

The 35mm and 120 (and sheet film) Fomapan films are the same emulsion on different base stocks (different under- and over-coats, too), so it's no surprise that 35mm has the same (lack of) speed as the 120. I don't see the same effect when I process Ultra 400 in Xtol, but there I have direct control over the contrast -- the "normal" development may in fact amount to a one stop push, or near enough, or else developing before I fix instead of simultaneously prevents fixing away halide before it can develop (monobaths used to be famous for losing a stop or so of speed to exactly this effect).
 
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Huss

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I don't recommend it with Ilford PanF 50. It seems the emulsion is fixed before it is fully developed resulting in very thin negatives. The test strip (exposed lead) was fine - nice and solid black - so the film itself does not play well with DF96.
 
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Nikon F3 Ltd, Zeiss 50 1.4, Ilford Delta 3200
Film shot at iso 1000, but developed for iso 3200 in Cinestill DF96.

 

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HP5 Plus, as per the DF96 instructions at box 400 speed.
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