Cinestill 400D 220 shipped - oops, apparently 120 instead!

[Rayt]

Earlier this year I sent $120 to Cinestill to support a campaign to release 400D in 220 and today got an email 4 rolls of 220 has shipped. Looks like I’ll be shooting Hasselblad in Utah this spring.

{Moderator's update - read later in the thread}

 

[AnselMortensen]

Wait.....What?
I supported the 400D 220 program, too... and I got an email the other day saying they weren't doing 220 and will be sending 2x as many rolls of 120 instead.
Hmmmm.....

 

[armadsen]

Yeah, they’ve been up front that they can’t deliver 220 right now and are sending 220 backers 2x 120 rolls instead.

 

[AnselMortensen]

Yes, they have been upfront about it...
I'm just surprised and confused that someone is actually getting some 220!

 

[Huss]

So is RayT really getting 220? Or mis-read the email? I wouldn't have thought they just make a few rolls for him.

 

[Radost]

I would love to be able to shoot 220 again.
Why did the manufacturers stop making it?

 

[Henning Serger]

I would love to be able to shoot 220 again.
Why did the manufacturers stop making it?

The short version:
- much too low demand
- much too high production costs
- therefore one 220 film would be significantly more expensive than two 120 films
- and then the vast majority of potential 220 customers would refuse to buy it
- no additional business for the manufacturers: with one sold 220 film they loose two sold 120 films.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Steven Lee]

@Henning Serger makes sense, thanks. But if the industry needed to "compress" their collective product line, why didn't they standardize on 220 instead of 120? Isn't it easier to manufacture: no need to deal with backing paper which seems to cause QA problems every once in a while?

 

[Henning Serger]

@Henning Serger makes sense, thanks. But if the industry needed to "compress" their collective product line, why didn't they standardize on 220 instead of 120? Isn't it easier to manufacture: no need to deal with backing paper which seems to cause QA problems every once in a while?

Hello Steven,

120 had already been the established, wide spread standard long before 220 was introduced as an additional option. And so were the cameras standardized on 120 film, not 220. Lots of medium format cameras (especially at that time) could not / cannot use 220.
If the film manufacturers had said "fu** you" to a huge number of medium format camera users by abandoning 120 in favour of 220.....well, that would not have gone well for the film industry .

And meanwhile at several manufacturers the former 220 confectioning machines are either broken and not repairable (e.g. Ilford), or the manufacturers have none at all (like the smaller producers).
AFAIK only Eastman Kodak and Fujifilm have still (retired) state-of-the-art 220 confectioning machines.

The whole topic has been discussed here on photrio endlessly in this thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ilford-and-220-for-film-resurgence.174030/.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Steven Lee]

@Henning Serger of course, makes perfect sense. I now feel silly for asking Thank you!

 

[Radost]

I wish adox fixes their 120 machine

 

[Rayt]

Hmmm. The email with the order summary states “2x Roll Twin Pack 400D 220”. I did not receive any previous emails telling me the campaign was a failure. I suppose I will just have to wait the few days until I get them in the mail to know for sure.

 

[Moose22]

I suppose I will just have to wait the few days until I get them in the mail to know for sure.

Super curious. Be sure to report back what you get!

 

[Roger Cole]

The existence of 220 was largely driven by wedding photographers, and to a lesser extent tour groups and the like, people who shot many, many photos in a day and could save a lot of reloading time, even with interchangeable backs. Since those are almost all digital now (wedding, and presumably ALL digital for groups) the market has pretty much vanished. A few hobbyists would like to have it but they'll content themselves with 120.

 

[Donald Qualls]

A few hobbyists would like to have it but they'll content themselves with 120.

And/or Shanghai GP3, or expired Kodak/Fuji offerings from eBay. Shanghai is the only manufacturer who have introduced a new 220 offering since Kodak/Fuji/Ilford started dropping them. They operate on a different economic model, apparently -- they also factory roll 620 and 127. Now if they had more than one emulsion in roll films, and/or could be convinced to offer 828...

 

[Huss]

@Henning Serger of course, makes perfect sense. I now feel silly for asking Thank you!

Shanghai sells 220 B&W film and it is very good.

 

[Ernst-Jan]

I wish adox fixes their 120 machine

They are working on it, for quite some time. But it takes quite some time and money to re-engineer it.

 

[Film-Niko]

Shanghai sells 220 B&W film and it is very good.

Shanghai is doing that not on sophisticated fully automatic 220 spooling machines like Kodak and Fuji have done in the past, but by hand of cheap workforce. And with all the other negative factors Chinese production is generally affected.
I've dealt enough with Chinese production environments in the past in my job. And therefore I don't want to support that kind of business anymore with my private, hard-earned money.
I prefer buying two 120 films instead from Ilford, Kodak, Fuji, Foma. Companies which are really important for us film shooters, and are worth to be supported.

 

[Huss]

Shanghai is doing that not on sophisticated fully automatic 220 spooling machines like Kodak and Fuji have done in the past, but by hand of cheap workforce. And with all the other negative factors Chinese production is generally affected.
I've dealt enough with Chinese production environments in the past in my job. And therefore I don't want to support that kind of business anymore with my private, hard-earned money.
I prefer buying two 120 films instead from Ilford, Kodak, Fuji, Foma. Companies which are really important for us film shooters, and are worth to be supported.

I find Shanghai very important for us film shooters who want to use 220 film. The results I have obtained from their recent offering have been excellent.

 

[MultiFormat Shooter]

Super curious. Be sure to report back what you get!

I just got my film, and it is 10 rolls of 120, rather than five rolls of 220.

 

[GregY]

I just got my film, and it is 10 rolls of 120, rather than five rolls of 220.

 

[MattKing]

First post and thread title updated, to reveal the disappointment.

 

[WhereSs]

I love the idea of 220 far too much for being someone whose only medium format camera takes 120. Hopefully Cinestill gets there, though! It would be nice to change rolls less often on a busy day.

 

[redbandit]

for mamiya you can find 220 inserts for 20$. 120 inserts when i find them are hitting 70-120$ plus shipping

 

[AnselMortensen]

I, too, received 10 rolls of 120 instead of 5 rolls of 220.
Cinestill included a nice letter saying that they haven't given up on 220, but wanted to get as much 120 out to photographers and retailers ASAP to fulfill obligations.
In other words, " The good of the many outweighs the good of the few".
I read this to mean that they will revisit the possibility of 220, but after other obligations are met, i.e. 4x5...(which I also supported).