Cinema Film and Chemistry... Need help :)

[jzagaja]

Remjet and ultrasonic cleaner https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByP8kkW_h00uRnMtTzFnT3R6NVk

 

[georgegrosu]

The ECN 2 procces is shown here (phase and chemical recipes)
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/h2407.pdf
Rem-Jet Backing Removal Equipment shown here: http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uplo...t_en_motion_support_processing_h242_h2402.pdf
The problem of removing antihalo layer is very sensitive.

George

 

[georgegrosu]

Initially I did not read carefully what you want to use backing layer removal.
I appreciate that eliminating backing layer is done only after exposure of the film.
Removing backing layer before exposure I believe you may cause some deficiencies.

George

 

[Rudeofus]

Removing backing layer before exposure I believe you may cause some deficiencies.

Cinestill films do just that: remjet is removed before the film is spooled and sold. There are some visible deficiencies in some lighting situations, especially when there are highlights in the scene, but in "normal" indoor scenes this film works very well.

 

[georgegrosu]

I personally use the ECN 2 procces for the color negative cine and color negative photo (process C 41).
The results are good in both cases.
To eliminate the backing layer before color developers I use a prebath - sodium carbonate 20 g / l.
2 min. with agitation.
After prebath, the roll of film out and wipe with a damp piece of chamois under running water.
1.5 min. wash and the film go in color developers.

George

 

[fdonadio]

George, can you describe the times and agitation you use for ECN-2?

 

[georgegrosu]

Development time 3 min. and 30 sec.
The agitation is continuing, medium intensity.
Earlier developer I make some vertically moves.

George

 

[fdonadio]

Great, George! Thanks! It seems you use a "dip and dunk" line, right? That's what I want to use, so the tanks are never out of the water bath...

 

[Rudeofus]

After prebath, the roll of film out and wipe with a damp piece of chamois under running water.
1.5 min. wash and the film go in color developers.

That's the step I still don't fully understand. After a prebath your film is at least moist if not wet, it will stick to any spindle and can't be put back onto any spool I know. How do you respool the film in this situation?

 

[fdonadio]

Rudeofus, I've heard/read it is easy to respool wet film by doing it underwater (stick hands, spool and film in a bucket of water). Somewhere in this very forum, I just don't remember where... It's something I still have to try, though.

(Edit: and it can only be done with steel spools, not Paterson-style spools.)

 

[georgegrosu]

I apologize for the confusion that I created.
I talk here about how I process manually ECN 2 films.
"After prebath, the roll of film out and wipe with a damp piece of chamois under running water.
1.5 min. wash and the film go in color developers. "
After prebath, I out the film from spiral and wipe the film with a mop wet suede.
The film go to spiral and then wash it inserts into developer dose.

Now talking about the ECN 2 machine.
The composition and concentration of the prebath is very important because if prebath is more active
when backing layer will fall in prebath and detached from the carrier particles will pass to film emulsion.
Once these black particles trapped film emulsion can not get (clean).
If prebath solution is less active, then these particles will not clean the sponge with water shower and
some of them will fall into developer.

I hope I have been clearer now.

George

 

[georgegrosu]

Process ECN 2 machine.
This is important to emphasize the phase of elimination the backing layer.
The cuvette with roller for removing the backing layer has no water collect in it.
Water jets go to the canal that black particles removed from suport
not go to the emulsion.

Another option for resolving the phase of the removing backing layer is to bay
Fuji color negative (cine) which do not have backing layer.
I think you find on the Internet.
Now, Fuji does not produce negative color film (cine).

George

 

[JoJo]

Another option for resolving the phase of the removing backing layer is to bay
Fuji color negative (cine) which do not have backing layer.

Not really.
I have lots of rolls F-64 as well as Eterna and it definitely HAS backing layer.
Maybe it is not as hard to remove like the Kodak one, but it makes the same black mess

Joachim

 

[georgegrosu]

I tried to find examples of negative color Fuji without backing layer.
In the documentation I do not found this specification.
I asked colleagues at the National Film Archive lab where I worked before and that have ECN 2 process.
Colleague from the technical control remembered something about some Fuji color negative film without antihalo, but was unable to give me examples.
I checked in Fuji color negatives pieces that we still have not developed on the faculty:
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/pdf/f64d.pdf
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/pdf/eterna_vivid500.pdf
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/pdf/eterna_vivid160.pdf
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/pdf/eterna500.pdf
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/pdf/eterna250.pdf
All the above color negatives have antihalou layer.
Maybe color negatives Reala be without antihalo layer.
Who has color negative Reala cine pieces can look if he have backing layer. (black support)

George

 

[Aleksej6]

I bought, shot and develop the Vision 3 250D in C41, but was unpleased with results, with irreal colors, difficulty or impossibility to correct dominants. I will not more buy this cinema stuff for home developing.

 

[frobozz]

I tried to find examples of negative color Fuji without backing layer.
In the documentation I do not found this specification.
I asked colleagues at the National Film Archive lab where I worked before and that have ECN 2 process.
Colleague from the technical control remembered something about some Fuji color negative film without antihalo, but was unable to give me examples.
I checked in Fuji color negatives pieces that we still have not developed on the faculty:
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/pdf/f64d.pdf
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/pdf/eterna_vivid500.pdf
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/pdf/eterna_vivid160.pdf
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/pdf/eterna500.pdf
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/motion_picture/pdf/eterna250.pdf
All the above color negatives have antihalou layer.
Maybe color negatives Reala be without antihalo layer.
Who has color negative Reala cine pieces can look if he have backing layer. (black support)

George

There may be some confusion - I remember seeing someone post here on APUG a while back a link to some Fuji films with no Remjet layer... but they were color release print films, not camera negative films. Kodak makes these too of course!

I guess that could be another thing for people to try developing in C-41, but the lowwwww ISO, lack of antihalation properties, and weird colors due to C-41 instead of ECP-2 processing...will certainly make for some "interesting" results.

Duncan

 

[georgegrosu]

frobroz, I believe you refer to this post as of 09/04/2010. http://www.fujifilm.com/products/mot...ucts/#negative
Link to Fuji, the title refers to products - motion picture films - negatives.
Fuji in 2012 (I think) stopped production of film material.
Produce only for black and white recording film color separations from digital masters.
Fuji has changed the presentation and website.
This page that no longer works. http://www.fujifilm.com/products/mot...ucts/#negative
I personally do not see the sense of this discussion now when that page no longer works.
You can have right or wrong.
After seeing the writing on the negative link was sending cine negative film and no photo.

George

 

[georgegrosu]

I found on the Internet a variant for films / processing ECN 2.
There may be people interested.
Dead Link Removed

George

 

[georgegrosu]

There is few Kodak Internegative films that are processed in ECN 2 and have not rem-jet backing.
KODAK Color Internegative Film 2273, 3273 no rem-jet backing.
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/5273_ti2655.pdf
KODAK VISION Color Intermediate Film 2242 no rem-jet backing.
KODAK VISION Color Intermediate Film 5242 with rem-jet backing.
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/5242_ti2461.pdf
Same exampes of picture with Kodak Eastman 35mm Color Intermediate Film SO-420
https://www.flickr.com/groups/1227372@N20/discuss/72157645680100403/

George

 

[fdonadio]

Cinema films without RemJet were made to be used as intermediate or internegative film. They have extremely low ISO (something between ISO 1 and 6, depending on stock) and are balanced for tungsten lighting.

I am not sure, but I've heard they made copies into these films by contact.

If you can cope with the extremely low ISO, the use of a filter (losing an extra 2/3 of a stop) and a great possibility of halation... Go for it!

 

[georgegrosu]

The images from the link are of poor quality.
It was the first result from Google.
https://www.flickr.com/groups/1227372@N20/discuss/72157645680100403/
The images have so many impurities that as is looks like an intermediate with backing layer of graphite.
Mister with Kodak Eastman 35mm Color Intermediate Film SO-420 has not taken into account the advice
of colleagues who told him to expose the intermediate at tungsten light.
Not having the correct color temperature, the photographic results are not very useful for parameters of exposure.
In connection with intermediate Exposure Indexes, as well as all sensitive materials from film processing
laboratories in no technical data will find an ISO (positive b&w, color positive, negative sound, high contrast, ...).
I admit to me in private conversations word escape one ISO materials above.
Intermediate film is exposed to tungsten light at a value of 6 (not 1.6) and developed in ECN 2 process.
This is told by several people on that link .
Sure intermediate film has a reduced sensitivity .

Intermediet films were manufactured with either a backing layer of uncoated backing layer of graphite - Fuji and Kodak.
There were more much color positive films that were backing layer of graphite (Kodak, Agfa, Azo).
There was color positive film without backing layer of graphite - ORWO PC 7.
Most efficient antihalo layer is with graphite is sure it retains all the light.
Intermediate film is a material made specifically for film processing laboratories and was and is very expensive.
The cost of intermediate film in 1997 is ~ the double the price of the color negative.
Now I'm afraid to look at the catalog Kodak, for color negative the price has doubled in the last 2 years
(no longer have discount for students).
Considering that for movie uses about 4 to 10 times more color negative film than the usable length of the film.
Intermediate film is uses twice the usable length of the film.
The positive color is used up to several hundred (thousand) times the usable length of the film, print run of film.
The positive color films Kodak, Agfa and in 1983 came Azocolor (Romania) had antihalou layer with graphite.
ORWO Color Print Film PC 7 have not antihalou graphite layer.

I first read about the intention to remove the dorsal layer of graphite by ~ 1990.
Removing the layer of graphite, I read in a Agfa brochure that is the ecological reason.
~ 1994 Agfa released the positive color film CP 10 without graphite backing layer.
With no backing layer of graphite could work without prebath.
Removing the backing layer with graphite from the color positive films is logic, because the problems
that can occur at the color positive film are much lower than color negative film or intermediate film.
The latter two are more expensive (produced in quantities far lower than the positive color film).
The intermediate film is intended for making color master positive and color duplicate negative from color master positive.
There was reversible intermediate film which run directly after negative – internegative ( duplicate negative).
The films CRI (Color reversal intermediate) uses VNF process (reversible color).
Lately digital transfer in the film took a large scale, intermediate films were made special for digital.
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Products/Lab_And_Post_Production/Intermediate_Films/index.htm
Intermediate film can use by contact printing or optical printing.
Using optical printing will grow a little the contrast in the final image.

If to the color positive film the dorsal graphite antihalo was abandoned , intermediate film are made with and without
the backing layer graphite, it can be assumed that color negative and some test were made to eliminate the graphite backing layer.
I remember that color negative uncoated with graphite antihalo a in the bleaching stage shown in green opaque on suport.
Excuse my English.

George

 

[dktucson]

Former Noritsu America tech with 25 years in the lab industry. I've recently got back into shooting film and remjet/ SO films are great to use. I put the film in a tank & reel with 2 teaspoons of baking soda and 100 farenheit water--shake vigorously for a minute and rinse/dump 3-4 times and remjet comes off. Then I process in a unicolor c41 kit and the results are fine

I bought 1200ft of Visions 50d for $35 (.09 cents a roll/24exp). Also bought 1000 ft of SO420 , some Fuji Eterna and Visions500T--all look good in c41 chems with the simple baking soda pre-wash. The Visions 500T was $80 for a 1000ft roll and the SO420 was $60 for a 1000ft roll.

 

[dktucson]

Cinema films without RemJet were made to be used as intermediate or internegative film. They have extremely low ISO (something between ISO 1 and 6, depending on stock) and are balanced for tungsten lighting.

I am not sure, but I've heard they made copies into these films by contact.

If you can cope with the extremely low ISO, the use of a filter (losing an extra 2/3 of a stop) and a great possibility of halation... Go for it!

I bought a 1000ft roll of SO-420 and this is exposed for 1/8 sec at f1.7 --no halation but yes a tripod is necessary

 

[fdonadio]

dktucson, I like the results. But, as I like to shoot "action", it's not an alternative for me. For the ones who shoot landscapes or other still subjects, it might work very well, as it did for you!

 

[dktucson]

Agreed, the right tool for the right job--I have quite a selection of older 500T Visions, 50d Visions and Fuji Eterna 500T that is more suited for general photography. Here is a shot from very old kodak Recordak Dacomatic film--ISO6 processed in Caffenol (coffee, baking soda and vitamin C). This film expired in 1973 and I have 400ft of it