Cinema Film and Chemistry... Need help :)

jsmithphoto1 · Feb 28, 2014

So, this one goes out to PhotoEngineer or someone else with the experience and genius . I purchased 1000 feet of Kodak Vision 250D and 400 feet of Kodak Vision 320T. I am wanting to make some kind of home-made machine to wash the rem-jet off in bulk so I can re-sell and they can send it to their photo lab without screwing stuff up, so this is where my issue comes in. I have read online that since rem-jet needs to be soaked in an alkaline solution to wash off, doing this before exposure will partially develop the film. My theory is making a solution (very weak) of water and sodium tetraborate (borax). I have played with it just a little and have found that the smallest amount in water will soften the rem-jet so much that you can basically wash it off under running water. How much damage will the borax cause to the dyes in the emulsion? Also, will a warm air dryer cause damage to the dyes? Thanks!

Gerald C Koch · Feb 28, 2014

As I see it you have three problems. First, An ECN type film will not develop correctly with C-41 processing. There will be color shifts and cross-over and possibly other problems. Second, you must remove the rem-jet coating but you cannot allow the film emulsion to get wet. To do so would remove such things as sensitizing dyes. There is also the risk of rem-jet particles being transferred to the emulsion side. Third, these films are intended for the ECN-2 process. Even if you remove the rem-jet coating processors will not be happy with these films going through their C-41 baths.

Eastman does have some cine films that do not have the rem-jet coating and are intended for C-41 processing. They would be a better choice.

Gerald C Koch · Feb 28, 2014

Besides being technically difficult, I might also add that your idea opens you to all sorts of legal problems should anything go wrong. Not only from people who buy your modified film but from processing labs and people who have had their film processed after yours.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Mar 1, 2014

Now you have 400 rolls of 36x films to homemade process.

railwayman3 · Mar 1, 2014

I agree with the above posters, but, even if this were technically possible, who are you hoping might buy untested and unknown film ? (Sorry to be discouraging. )

pdeeh · Mar 1, 2014

I have to say I would have been inclined to find out how to do it before I bought all the film ...

fotch · Mar 1, 2014

Sounds like your on the way to making a small fortune, by starting out with a larger one.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Mar 1, 2014

Only way to rescue your investment is to supply ECN2 processing also. Its another investment and few people theft peoples money in this way and I dont know how you would build that trust. You would need a excellent website and experience with film processing.

Athiril · Mar 2, 2014

Anyone who has a Kodak account can order in ECN-2 chemistry kits for you. Most of the steps can be mixed up from scratch (So can dev, as recipe is provided by Kodak anyway). The dev isn't that expensive imo. But last I checked Part A is a 20L plastic cube, quite heavy.

I've got the ratios written down somewhere.

Sensitising dyes shouldn't be removed by water in my experience with ECN-2 films.

Remjet doesn't ruin chemistry, it just needs to be filtered out of it, which machines do, and it doesn't stick to other films submerged in processing solution.

This really should be obvious to most, otherwise a wet remjet removal wouldn't be possible without ruining the film.

The problem in C-41 processing machines arises as not -all- the remjet will come off in solution just by passing through it, some of it will rub off onto non-submerged rollers and get onto other parts, which can then possibly transfer to other films.

railwayman3 · Mar 2, 2014

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Only way to rescue your investment is to supply ECN2 processing also. Its another investment and few people theft peoples money in this way and I dont know how you would build that trust. You would need a excellent website and experience with film processing.

It reads as though the OP was hoping to sell this film to ordinary users who send their films to the local photo-lab, rather than those of us who enjoy experimenting.

But why try to compete with the brand-name high-quality C41 still films and established labs, by trying to sell film which is designed for movie use (and therefore for printing onto positive film or for further digital processing, rather than paper prints) and with all the complexities of small-scale use of a different process.

And, no doubt like others, I keep my "experimenting" with old films and unusual films, etc., totally separate from my "serious" picture-taking for which I use the fresh branded films which I know....even for family snap-snaps which might have some interest in the distant future !

fretlessdavis · Mar 2, 2014

If you can find a way to do ECN-2 at home, maybe you could get bulk ECN-2 kits, and then repackage it to include 10 rolls of 135-35 and the chemistry necessary to process those 10 rolls.

I would be very interested in that!

jsmithphoto1 · Mar 5, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
Besides being technically difficult, I might also add that your idea opens you to all sorts of legal problems should anything go wrong. Not only from people who buy your modified film but from processing labs and people who have had their film processed after yours.

Have you ever heard of CineStill? I have seen the results and they are absolutely amazing! The only thing they do different is they use Kodak Vision 500T WITH rem-jet on it. However, they have patented a process of removing the rem-jet and sell their film for half the price of an ounce of silver (I paid $12 for a 36 exp roll). My film would be more affordable. And you get CineStill processed at any C-41 lab.

jsmithphoto1 · Mar 5, 2014

fotch said:
Sounds like your on the way to making a small fortune, by starting out with a larger one.

Quite funny, as my 1400 feet of completely usable film only cost less than $200, which has greater anti-halation properties and even better anti-static properties than "normal" C-41 film. And the colors are amazing to boot! I have no problem processing myself as I have also purchased my chemicals at some very awesome prices. So, where is this large fortune I spent?

jsmithphoto1 · Mar 5, 2014

fretlessdavis said:
If you can find a way to do ECN-2 at home, maybe you could get bulk ECN-2 kits, and then repackage it to include 10 rolls of 135-35 and the chemistry necessary to process those 10 rolls.

I would be very interested in that!

That is a very good idea! I have been researching a little on the ECN-2 chems, just can't find a supplier. Maybe if I looked a little harder?

jsmithphoto1 · Mar 5, 2014

Thank you, everyone, for the replies! I have experimented some with it (when I have the time) and find really no problems. The rem-jet comes off SUPER easy in a borax solution. The colors are vivid and almost pristine. It is a good cross-process film, IMHO! I have learned a way to remove the rem-jet without touching the emulsion. As far as competing with other film suppliers, it's not competition on my part. I just want to supply an interesting product to consumers who enjoy such. If anyone is interested in purchasing some rolls from me WITH the rem-jet for experimenting with, I will be more than happy to sell and mail some for awesome prices. Just pm me if interested!

fretlessdavis · Mar 5, 2014

jsmithphoto1 said:
That is a very good idea! I have been researching a little on the ECN-2 chems, just can't find a supplier. Maybe if I looked a little harder?

Try contacting a facility that processes movie film (Dwayne's maybe?). Unless it's against agreements with Kodak, I'm sure someone would be willing to order a round of the chemicals (likely VERY large quantities) and forward them to you, for a bit of profit and the transit cost.

Not sure of all the chemicals, but I'm sure C-41 stabilizer, and possibly bleach could be used. Maybe fixer, too?

EDIT: I would also be *very* interested if you found a way to get some 70mm Vision film and spool it up as rolls of 220.

frobozz · Mar 5, 2014

Kodak sells the chemicals directly. Look in the appropriate section here:

http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/QA_MotionPictureCatalog_February7_2014.pdf

The prices aren't huge, but the quantities are!

Not sure if you can order them via their 800-621-FILM number or not (that may just be for film orders) but I bet those folks would know who to call.

Duncan

Gerald C Koch · Mar 5, 2014

jsmithphoto1 said:
Have you ever heard of CineStill? I have seen the results and they are absolutely amazing! The only thing they do different is they use Kodak Vision 500T WITH rem-jet on it. However, they have patented a process of removing the rem-jet and sell their film for half the price of an ounce of silver (I paid $12 for a 36 exp roll). My film would be more affordable. And you get CineStill processed at any C-41 lab.

Never heard of Cinestill but I stand by my comments. Since the ECN-2 and C-41 processes use different color developing agents there will be color shifts and possible crossover. This was discussed on a previous thread.

pdeeh · Mar 5, 2014

But Gerald, this is the internet; what somebody else says somewhere else always trumps anything anybody says on the current forum.

R Paul · Mar 5, 2014

How did you cross process it? When I did it in E6 chems It came out horribly

jsmithphoto1 · Mar 5, 2014

fretlessdavis said:
Try contacting a facility that processes movie film (Dwayne's maybe?). Unless it's against agreements with Kodak, I'm sure someone would be willing to order a round of the chemicals (likely VERY large quantities) and forward them to you, for a bit of profit and the transit cost.

Not sure of all the chemicals, but I'm sure C-41 stabilizer, and possibly bleach could be used. Maybe fixer, too?

EDIT: I would also be *very* interested if you found a way to get some 70mm Vision film and spool it up as rolls of 220.

Thanks for that info! I will check that out AND I will see what I can do about the 70mm!

jsmithphoto1 · Mar 5, 2014

Thanks! I have searched high and low for a .pdf that listed the prices!

jsmithphoto1 · Mar 5, 2014

Okay, I agree! HOWEVER, the results (minus the shifts) were just beautiful. I've seen them. It's hard to say it's crap .

jsmithphoto1 · Mar 5, 2014

I process it C-41. The results are good! I am in the transition of film scanners, so when I get my new one, I will post the results. The one I have now (film scanner) is a piece not even worthy to be called fecal waste.

John Shriver · Mar 5, 2014

There is no ECN 70mm film. The camera negative for that process is 60mm. Only the ECP (print) film comes in 70mm, with the extra width being for the sound tracks.

Of course, if you're willing to order a master roll, they'll probably slice and perforate it any way you like.

Cinema Film and Chemistry... Need help :)

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