Choosing the printer for digital negatives: Epson or Canon?

[koraks]

Transparency film is usually not officially supported. Inkjet printers are made to produce produce reflective prints. The use for transparencies is essentially "off-label" usage and will generally not be officially recommended or even mentioned.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Canon state that the PRO10S cannot print on transparencies, however with a suitable driver it works fine.

 

[MarcoA]

Transparency film is usually not officially supported. Inkjet printers are made to produce produce reflective prints. The use for transparencies is essentially "off-label" usage and will generally not be officially recommended or even mentioned.

You are right. With the Epson printing on transparency film is a non-issue because a lot of people make digital negatives for all sorts of (alternative) techniques and with all sorts of Epson models. With Canon printers ... not so much so I would like to be on more solid ground re: printing on transparency film.

I just posted on the official Canon community forum, I will keep you posted if I get an answer.

Cheers!

 

[koraks]

I just posted on the official Canon community forum, I will keep you posted if I get an answer.

Thanks, many would appreciate this, I'm sure - I would in any case!
You're right that we need to mostly go by what others tell us. I personally don't doubt that the printer you mention can successfully print on transparency film, but that's not a 100% guarantee, so not necessarily of all that much use to you.

 

[gary mulder]

Printed with a Canon ImageProGraf Pro-2600 on Ink jet transparencies sheet. No profile. Not tried to print it.

 

[nmp]

If my memory serves me correctly (based on what I have read from others not personal experience,) printing silver gelatin does not require as high a density as something like salt prints, for example, where we have to resort to things like QTR to boost it. People also have used basic glossy inkjet paper to successfully make silver gelatin, eschewing the need for a transparency all together. From that perspective, either Epson or Canon would work fine. The latter (the higher Pro models) has vacuum paper carrier that might be advantageous if "pizza" wheels are a problem.

:Niranjan.

 

[MarcoA]

… People also have used basic glossy inkjet paper to successfully make silver gelatin, eschewing the need for a transparency all together.

:Niranjan.

I do not understand. Printing a negative on a glossy paper and then contact printing like if I were using a transparent film? The old “paper negative” technique was using specially manufactured paper that in fact was semi-transparent. If I use regular ink-jet glossy paper for printing the negative there is practically no light going though It. Please help …

thanks!

 

[koraks]

I do not understand. Printing a negative on a glossy paper and then contact printing like if I were using a transparent film? The old “paper negative” technique was using specially manufactured paper that in fact was semi-transparent. If I use regular ink-jet glossy paper for printing the negative there is practically no light going though It. Please help …

thanks!

The idea isn't too outlandish, but it's IMO of little relevance to what you're likely going to do with your negatives.
Especially cheap, thin inkjet paper is somewhat translucent. You could make a usable paper negative from it - although print quality may not quite be up to what you can get with a proper transparency film, and exposure times will still be on the long side even on a fast medium like regular VC silver gel paper. For alt. processes, it's pretty much out unless you like sitting around for a long time waiting for sufficient UV to have filtered through two layers of polythene and a paper base.
The paper negative route I'd consider more of a hypothetical option than something worth spending much time with thinking it through or experimenting with - unless maybe you're doing a single test on VC enlarging paper and you don't want to purchase a pack of transparency sheets specifically for that.

 

[gary mulder]

Printed with a Canon ImageProGraf Pro-2600 on Ink jet transparencies sheet. No profile. Not tried to print it.


View attachment 408161

I just printed the “negative” on some fiber based silver gelatine paper. It looks OK to me.
So at least one prove that it can be done with a Canon inkjet printer.

 

[nmp]

I do not understand. Printing a negative on a glossy paper and then contact printing like if I were using a transparent film? The old “paper negative” technique was using specially manufactured paper that in fact was semi-transparent. If I use regular ink-jet glossy paper for printing the negative there is practically no light going though It. Please help …

thanks!

There is one mention of this I could find here on Photrio:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/digital-paper-negatives.151205/#post-1972615

There was a discussion of this on the old altphotolist somewhere regarding the use of Costco Kirkland glossy inkjet paper used as a medium for making digital negatives for silver gelatin. That paper is now no longer available but perhaps something similar might work (may be one of the lowest gsm papers that is out there.)

:Niranjan.

 

[richyd]

I print argyrotypes from film negatives. I had a project where I had to create digital negatives for the process. I have a Canon Pro 200, dye based, used for the odd test proof print. I saw an article, I thought it was posted here but cannot find a reference, to a system developed by someone entitled Truneg and he used a Canon IP8750, not a very high end dye printer. Encouraged by that I used Charthrob and generic transparency film with my Canon, got what I was looking for and created a satisfactory series of prints.

 

[koraks]

to a system developed by someone entitled Truneg

TruNeg is an approach towards creating digital negatives with minimal/no calibration or linearization. Its aim is to make a very simple process result in negatives that approximate silver gelatin negatives in terms of tonal rendering, using an archetypal and mathematically derived curve shape. Its maker has briefly posted here on the forum. I admit I still have to do (intend to) do some testing with it, which I really should have done long ago.

 

[revdoc]

An article describing how Trueneg works, with a link to his website;

The True Inverted Digital Negative – AlternativePhotography.com

www.alternativephotography.com

 

[gary mulder]

I am printing on Kentmere Document Art graded paper. The spectral response is bit different from “normal” graded paper. Using the red ink from the canon pro-2600 or the pro-1100 gives a better contrast curve.
In my opinion the approach with grey rectangles doesn’t work that good. Better just look at the result with a real picture/print.

 

[MarcoA]

A brief update

1. A message on the Canon USA forum re: whether the PROGRAF 1100 can print on transparencies such as Pictorico OHP has been read by about 220 people and received zero answers so far. But I will keep monitoring it.

2. Canon Italy has told me that the PROGRAF 1100 does not print on transparencies (but simply because the user manual does not mention them, not because they know it for a fact)

3. Canon Italy (or one of their distributors) does not have a PROGRAF 1100 available to make a print test.

Cheers

Marco

 

[tykos]

3. Canon Italy (or one of their distributors) does not have a PROGRAF 1100 available to make a print test.

this is quite hilarious: "hey, i'd like to buy your twelve hundred euro printer, can i see just one print?" "we don't have it and we don't know anyone in the entire country who bought it to ask for a favour".

you could try asking the marketing dept if they can loan you printer for a review on your youtube channel: it's a long shot but there are lots of videos of big printers' reviews, maybe...

 

[retina_restoration]

A brief update

1. A message on the Canon USA forum re: whether the PROGRAF 1100 can print on transparencies such as Pictorico OHP has been read by about 220 people and received zero answers so far. But I will keep monitoring it.

2. Canon Italy has told me that the PROGRAF 1100 does not print on transparencies (but simply because the user manual does not mention them, not because they know it for a fact)

3. Canon Italy (or one of their distributors) does not have a PROGRAF 1100 available to make a print test.

Cheers

Marco

Years ago, I wanted to make digital negs on Pictorico using my prograf Pro1000, specifically for Salted Paper printmaking. I found that 1) there was virtually zero documentation for how to work with the Canon equipment (it was all for Epson) and 2) the Canon printer would not produce enough pigment density to make a suitable neg for Salt printing. So I gave up. No way was I going to buy another printer just to make negs for Salt printing.
However, if you are just planning on making contact prints on silver gelatin papers, the Canon system can definitely make suitable negs on Pictorico to do the job. Negs for silver gelatin do not require as much density/contrast as many Alt processes do.

 

[MarcoA]

this is quite hilarious: "hey, i'd like to buy your twelve hundred euro printer, can i see just one print?" "we don't have it and we don't know anyone in the entire country who bought it to ask for a favour".

....

Hilarious indeed.

With Canon so reluctant to take my money, what will happen when I call Canon because my printer has problems?

Hmmmmmmm ....

Marco

 

[MarcoA]

Years ago, I wanted to make digital negs on Pictorico using my prograf Pro1000, specifically for Salted Paper printmaking. I found that 1) there was virtually zero documentation for how to work with the Canon equipment (it was all for Epson) and 2) the Canon printer would not produce enough pigment density to make a suitable neg for Salt printing. So I gave up. No way was I going to buy another printer just to make negs for Salt printing.
However, if you are just planning on making contact prints on silver gelatin papers, the Canon system can definitely make suitable negs on Pictorico to do the job. Negs for silver gelatin do not require as much density/contrast as many Alt processes do.

Great info, thanks! I too cannot afford two printers. I would have bought the 1100 in a heartbeat if paper was my only medium. Indeed, the P900 manual deals specifically with printing on transparencies, while the 1100 manual does not. I have to accept that and consider now the P900.

Thank you all for your patience in putting up with this tortuous decision process of mine …

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have had Epson printers for decades, but the one I have added wireless capabilities, a cartridge mailing program available and other features such as a sleep mode. That Epson printer has had all sorts of problems which I have never seen before. I have spend many hours on the telephone with Epson working out the problems. They even offered send one free with a monthly rental fee. I will buy from Canon the next time. A friend of mine has had Canon printers for years, uses it extensively and had no problems.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Years ago, I wanted to make digital negs on Pictorico using my prograf Pro1000, specifically for Salted Paper printmaking. I found that 1) there was virtually zero documentation for how to work with the Canon equipment (it was all for Epson) and 2) the Canon printer would not produce enough pigment density to make a suitable neg for Salt printing. So I gave up. No way was I going to buy another printer just to make negs for Salt printing.
However, if you are just planning on making contact prints on silver gelatin papers, the Canon system can definitely make suitable negs on Pictorico to do the job. Negs for silver gelatin do not require as much density/contrast as many Alt processes do.

Canon pigment printers have enough density for salt prints. I do them from time to time. For most alt processes I have to dial the density back.

 

[retina_restoration]

Canon pigment printers have enough density for salt prints. I do them from time to time. For most alt processes I have to dial the density back.

Not in my experience: I was unable to get both D-max and clean whites from a Canon negative.