Choosing a 6x6 system for renewed film shooting... opinions wanted.

[Sirius Glass]

I understand where you are coming from, my friend. Especially, since you don't shoot portraits.

Myself, I would choose the 180 over the 250mm. It's an excellent portrait lens!

My father would take some quite good portraits. I would see him approach a subject and ask to take a portrait. Once he had permission he would take out the Mamiya C330 crank out the lens and practically shove each lens up each nostril. I still see the look of horror on the subjects' faces. It was amazing to me that he had taken such good portraits. Every time I think about taking a portrait, I see what the look of horror would be coming and that kills any ideas of portraits.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I had well equiped RB67 and Mamiya Universal Press systems. I also have an MF view camera system. The RB was in especially good condition, because I had had it completely serviced. Deciding to cut back by one system, I kept the Mamiya Universal Press.
Carl Zeiss CF enses r newerhave the T* multi coating and are excellent performers.
It can be used handheld, yet it can also be used by composing and focusing directly on the ground glass. It has inter-changeable backs, which is essential for me. These backs are known to keep fillm especially flat. It's part of a system, so there are useful accessories available. One nice thing about range finders, one can see the subject at the instant of exposure. It's easy for me to adjust the range finder system.

I have 50mm, 65mm, 100mm f2.8, 150mm, and 250mm f5 lenses for mine. The 50mm is based on a Biogon design (as I understand it) and is known to be especially sharp. It also covers 6x9. The 100mm f2.8 is also known to be a very sharp lens. I doubt if either are multi-coated; this is not an issue for me.

Mamiya Universal equipment can be found at very good prices.

This system is kind of out of left field. But, it sure meets my needs.

 

[Light Capture]

I understand where you are coming from, my friend. Especially, since you don't shoot portraits.

Myself, I would choose the 180 over the 250mm. It's an excellent portrait lens!

180 is one of the top lenses for the system. And smaller than 250mm. There is really no bad lens in the system. Hasselblad lens datasheet give some details on what each lens was designed for and descriptions are quite accurate. Most of the datasheet can be found on Hasselblad Historical website. MTF's can be compared

180 is also quite a bit more expensive and more rare than 250. 250 can be found for a fraction of price. If it won't be used often, it's worth having 250.
150mm is somewhere in the middle with price.

 

[Sirius Glass]

180 is one of the top lenses for the system. And smaller than 250mm. There is really no bad lens in the system. Hasselblad lens datasheet give some details on what each lens was designed for and descriptions are quite accurate. Most of the datasheet can be found on Hasselblad Historical website. MTF's can be compared

180 is also quite a bit more expensive and more rare than 250. 250 can be found for a fraction of price. If it won't be used often, it's worth having 250.
150mm is somewhere in the middle with price.

The 150mm lens is the least used on my lenses.

 

[itsdoable]

Now you are no longer talking about film photography which the OP is looking for. Also the Hy6 system is more pricey and what one would pay for a basic Hasselblad system.

Both the 6008 and HY6 are film cameras..., and the OP did not specify a price limit.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Both the 6008 and HY6 are film cameras..., and the OP did not specify a price limit.

OK. I did not know because I am happy with my systems.

 

[itsdoable]

It still works as GMS system but not as originally intended. My observation is that motorized bodies with GMS were upgraded and 200/2000 bodies were designed with GMS as a standard. They also have much refined mechanics compared to 500 mechanical bodies which didn't change much since the beginning when they were first introduced. These newly designed cameras were more expensive than mechanical bodies at the time and considered top of the line by Hasselblad.
What I call true GMS bodies, they have more complex mirror movement in several axes and that also reduces shake to some extent. Even though reduction can't be felt or heard, in general images show some improvement.

Mirror on 503CW is the same size with small cutout since that corner would interfere with mirror catch. 500ELX and newer motorized have different size of the mirror. 503CW and 501CM have spring leaf at the back of the mirror while older bodies have foam that acts as a spring to keep mirror in the right position. This foam deteriorates and causes focusing issues. CLA is recommended with all of these bodies. There are several issues affecting older cameras. Any impact will shorten the body length. CLA at place that has factory jigs will take care of all geometry issues.
This is not something that only happens to Hasselblads but most of the cameras. Hasselblad has built in ways to restore geometry of the body and it can be adjusted back to factory specifications.

Just a note about the GMS:

Besides using a larger mirror to cover all lenses, the GMS does not have the foam pads holding the mirror on like the classic system, so they do not go out of adjustment with aging foam.

The foam pad are necessary on the older system because the mirror cage flexes when the mirror is brought down and the claw catches the corner of the mirror to hold it down. The glass mirror cannot flex like this without breaking so it need to be attached with a flexing pad. The GMS system does not need to flex.

My 503cx no longer focuses to infinity, which is a classic symptom of deteriorated pads.

My advice is to get a body with the GMS, it's one more thing that does not need to be service in an old camera body.

 

[Alan Gales]

My father would take some quite good portraits. I would see him approach a subject and ask to take a portrait. Once he had permission he would take out the Mamiya C330 crank out the lens and practically shove each lens up each nostril. I still see the look of horror on the subjects' faces. It was amazing to me that he had taken such good portraits. Every time I think about taking a portrait, I see what the look of horror would be coming and that kills any ideas of portraits.

I generally don't get that close when shooting portraits. I guess your Dad didn't own the 135 or 180 lens for his Mamiya?

A few years ago I was at Busch Stadium here in St. Louis for the Paul McCartney concert. Sitting to my right were two ladies looking forward to the show starting. One handed me her cell phone and asked me to take a photo of the two of them. I suppose it had maybe a 28mm lens on it so I was pretty close when I took the shot. The phone owner exclaimed that I was too close but when she saw the image on her phone she said it was perfect. Her friend loved it too and said that I had perfectly captured the moment. Sometimes too close is all right.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I generally don't get that close when shooting portraits. I guess your Dad didn't own the 135 or 180 lens for his Mamiya?

A few years ago I was at Busch Stadium here in St. Louis for the Paul McCartney concert. Sitting to my right were two ladies looking forward to the show starting. One handed me her cell phone and asked me to take a photo of the two of them. I suppose it had maybe a 28mm lens on it so I was pretty close when I took the shot. The phone owner exclaimed that I was too close but when she saw the image on her phone she said it was perfect. Her friend loved it too and said that I had perfectly captured the moment. Sometimes too close is all right.

Yes, but up the nose is too close. Does one really need a close up of every zit?

He had the 65mm, 80mm and the 250mm lenses.

 

[Light Capture]

Just a note about the GMS:

Besides using a larger mirror to cover all lenses, the GMS does not have the foam pads holding the mirror on like the classic system, so they do not go out of adjustment with aging foam.

The foam pad are necessary on the older system because the mirror cage flexes when the mirror is brought down and the claw catches the corner of the mirror to hold it down. The glass mirror cannot flex like this without breaking so it need to be attached with a flexing pad. The GMS system does not need to flex.

My 503cx no longer focuses to infinity, which is a classic symptom of deteriorated pads.

My advice is to get a body with the GMS, it's one more thing that does not need to be service in an old camera body.

As I mentioned earlier, mirror is not larger on 501CM and 503CW. It just slides further than non-GMS bodies on a leaf spring behind the mirror.
Foam behind mirror can be tested easily by pushing mirror down with piece of plastic or something similar to see if there is any movement. If it springs back towards front of the frame, foam is working fine.
If it stays in the bottom of the frame, foam deteriorated completely.

Foam is certainly a weak point but it's very rare that camera needs service only for these foam pads behind mirror.
When this foam has deteriorated, it's the same situation with the foam that dampens the mirror and there is also the foam that sits in the groove where mirror frame mashes into focusing screen frame.
This other foam around focusing screen frame is the same on all 500 series mechanical bodies.
After enough time passes that this foam has deteriorated, body geometry is likely off in other places.
Body alignment specifications are plus/minus 0.03mm and mirror foam will drop it by 0.4-0.5mm. On average cameras coming in for service are in addition to this 0.3-0.4mm short. Few are closer and few are really bad.

If camera is aligned to factory specifications, it will focus accurately within few millimeters. It is very hard to adjust these without special tools.

Rear frame is stationary but if you look close to the middle of the back of the frame there is a dimple in the frame and mirror pivots on that small dimple.
Front side of the frame that is away from the crank (towards the lens) is sitting on L post on the right side that gets adjusted by very slight bending during service and keeps exact 45 degree angle.
Side closer to the mirror can also be adjusted by slightly bending the mirror catch. The purpose of the foam or spring is to return mirror to the same position after rewind.

All of this is different with motorized 500, 200 and 2000 series that are equipped with GMS system.

 

[ic-racer]

But then you would have to deal with parallax, and not seeing the effect of a polarizer and not have the TTL correct for the polarizer.

Yes good points. I was more thinking of a backup camera when the SLR quits

 

[Sirius Glass]

I was more thinking of a backup camera when the SLR quits

I have not had that happen with the Hasselblads and the Nikon AF SLRs only stop when out of film or the batteries are dead, both situations recoverable.

 

[ic-racer]

I have not had that happen with the Hasselblads.

That is good to know. I have never used one and don't know anyone that has one ( other than my local dealer ).

 

[mshchem]

Sirius will love this, I left the Hasselblad at home yesterday and took my Mamiya 6 MF. I was shooting some train yards. On the 2nd roll on exposure 8 the camera stopped. Couldn't release the shutter. I put new batteries in no change. I went into my darkroom removed the film. I put in a trial roll, camera worked perfectly.
I think it's a combination of cold weather, old batteries and maybe the 150mm telephoto I was using.

Bottom line purely mechanical cameras like my Hasselblad don't rely on electronics or a battery.

 

[Alan Gales]

Bottom line purely mechanical cameras like my Hasselblad don't rely on electronics or a battery.

Which is becoming more important as cameras age.

 

[mshchem]

I put some not old silver oxide batteries in the Mamiya 6 MF. It's working great now. I got out the manual, when you go out in the cold with two year old batteries, and the LEDS start flashing and then go out, well it's time for new batteries.
I ordered some fresh batteries. I usually can find Eveready 357 silver batteries, I went 2 of my regular reliable places, they had everything except that size.

 

[mshchem]

Which is becoming more important as cameras age.

Takes the same cells as my Nikon F3

 

[itsdoable]

As I mentioned earlier, mirror is not larger on 501CM and 503CW. It just slides further than non-GMS bodies on a leaf spring behind the mirror.
Foam behind mirror can be tested easily by pushing mirror down with piece of plastic or something similar to see if there is any movement. If it springs back towards front of the frame, foam is working fine.
If it stays in the bottom of the frame, foam deteriorated completely.

Foam is certainly a weak point but it's very rare that camera needs service only for these foam pads behind mirror....
<snip>

The open area on the 500CM mirror is ~56mm long, it's almost 62mm on the GMS - but it is true that the compound movement that places the GMS mirror lower into the light path is the main reason for the performance improvement.

20 years ago, the mirror foam on the original mirrors were not a problem, but I've seen a lot more focus issues in the last few years related to this foam, it appears that 30+ years is beyond the life expectancy, My 500cx is less than 30 years old, and is exhibiting this,

 

[Light Capture]

The open area on the 500CM mirror is ~56mm long, it's almost 62mm on the GMS - but it is true that the compound movement that places the GMS mirror lower into the light path is the main reason for the performance improvement.

20 years ago, the mirror foam on the original mirrors were not a problem, but I've seen a lot more focus issues in the last few years related to this foam, it appears that 30+ years is beyond the life expectancy, My 500cx is less than 30 years old, and is exhibiting this,

Mirror is the same size with only difference being the corner cutout. If you remove them and measure you'll see they are the same size. Mechanical 500 series GMS bodies don't have a front and back portion of mirror hidden under the frame.
I don't think size of the mirror changes anything for the OP. Important part is that he's using mostly wide lenses and whether slight partial darkening on long lenses will pose any issues.
Whether upgrading to GMS body is worth it, $500 or significantly more for body that is also likely not serviced or getting 500C/M and spending 250-350 for full service and being confident it focuses accurately and that body is not bumped out of alignment.

Even though I use all of these bodies, I'm not picking a body to use based on whether it has GMS or not. Properly aligned and calibrated body makes much more difference in real world use than GMS equipped body.

As noted earlier, mirror foam will go bad at the same time approximately as mirror dampening foam on focusing screen frame. Mirror will clunk directly against metal focusing screen frame and probably cause more vibration and additional wear.

 

[Autonerd]

1. Longevity. The Bronica and the Mamiya both use electronic shutters. Are we reacing the end of life for this equipment an will there be any paths to repair?

I can't really make a recommendation on cameras (only 6x6 I have used is a C330) but I can address the electronic shutter issue -- and that is don't worry about it. I have several 35mm cameras with electronic shutters (plus two M645s) and the ones that weren't DOA have worked perfectly fine. Parts replacement might come from donor cameras, but I think the shutter mechanisms are pretty robust -- and timing stays near perfect over the years. I like mechanical cameras well enough, but I don't shy away from electronic shutters and have had few problems.

Aaron

 

[Alan Gales]

Takes the same cells as my Nikon F3

That's good. It makes it easy.

None of my film cameras take batteries. I own a Wehman 8x10, Mamiya C220f and a Stereo Realist 35mm camera. Of course my Pentax Spot meter and my Minolta Flash meter take batteries.

 

[ruilourosa]

The open area on the 500CM mirror is ~56mm long, it's almost 62mm on the GMS - but it is true that the compound movement that places the GMS mirror lower into the light path is the main reason for the performance improvement.

20 years ago, the mirror foam on the original mirrors were not a problem, but I've seen a lot more focus issues in the last few years related to this foam, it appears that 30+ years is beyond the life expectancy, My 500cx is less than 30 years old, and is exhibiting this,

Performance is the same! You just get a minor mirror blackout.



No focusing issues with hasselblad... Never... I have 4 bodies.

 

[otto.f]

used to have a Mamiya 6MF body and the three lenses and I LOVED it. It is the camera that I most regret selling these days.

So, this is a quite easy decision, no? Unless you want to closer, but that requires a much more voluminous and heavy system

 

[mshchem]

That's good. It makes it easy.

None of my film cameras take batteries. I own a Wehman 8x10, Mamiya C220f and a Stereo Realist 35mm camera. Of course my Pentax Spot meter and my Minolta Flash meter take batteries.

And after development, there's a light leak in the Mamiya 6mf bellows. I think I found it

 

[mshchem]

I love the Mamiya 6 MF. I have 2, one with a now confirmed light leak, in bellows I believe. No big deal, I will find a repair person. I just ordered another body from Japan.

I also love my Hasselblad. If was going to have only one camera, in 6x6 it would definitely be a late model Hasselblad V system. These cameras require occasional cla. Because there are so many Hasselblads there will always be repair services and parts. Make sure you get one with the AcuteMatt focusing screen.