Chemistry question: Xtol for sharper, bigger grain?

[Juan Valdenebro]

Xtol's tendency to hide (dissolve) grain, is the main reason why I decided not to use it again some years ago. I prefer sharp and visible grain.
But I like the idea of using a developer that can be replenished with itself...
Would it be chemically possible to add Xtol something that makes it a developer for sharper, more visible grain, without damaging its balance and keeping properties?
Thanks.

 

[bdial]

Some folks have experimented using it in conjunction with Rodinal, there are probably some very old threads here discussing it.
There is also the now unofficial 1 to 3 dilution using it one-shot. But at that dilution it’s hard to get sufficient developer in the volume of a roll film tank.

 

[Paul Howell]

What about Tmax developer or DDX, both are acutance type developers, but cannot be replenished?

 

[Sirius Glass]

The reason people use XTOL is for finer grain. Find a different developer and move on.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Oh, yes, bdial, thanks!
I have read that several times, and from good photographers. It seems it just works...
Unfortunately Rodinal is one of those things I can't buy because of air transport restrictions: it can't fly over sea.
But that would be a good solution: standard replenished Xtol, and then a few mililitres of Rodinal just before development.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

The reason people use XTOL is for finer grain. Find a different developer and move on.

Hahahahahahahaha

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

What about Tmax developer or DDX, both are acutance type developers, but cannot be replenished?

Hello, Paul. Yes, I've used both and both are great developers.
I just want to try the replenished system with Xtol again, but with a lot more grain, thanks!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Xtol-R or diluted 1+1 has pretty dark good acutance.

 

[pentaxuser]

Xtol-R or diluted 1+1 has pretty dark good acutance.

I knew that a Scots-Canadian would come up with a solution. So a solution in 8 posts, Juan.

Give it a go and tell us how it goes

pentaxuser

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I knew that a Scots-Canadian would come up with a solution. So a solution in 8 posts, Juan.

Give it a go and tell us how it goes

pentaxuser

gotta love predictive texting... dark, er darn it!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

The reason people use XTOL is for finer grain. Find a different developer and move on.

I'm surprised you didn't post your Xtol sharpness/fine grain chart!

 

[albada]

I've read that D-23 is grainier and can be replenished. But you'll probably need to mix both yourself.

 

[radiant]

Xtol's tendency to hide (dissolve) grain, is the main reason why I decided not to use it again some years ago. I prefer sharp and visible grain.
But I like the idea of using a developer that can be replenished with itself...
Would it be chemically possible to add Xtol something that makes it a developer for sharper, more visible grain, without damaging its balance and keeping properties?
Thanks.

Why don't you use Rodinal? Cheap as hell. What is the requirement for replenishing?

 

[koraks]

Would it be chemically possible to add Xtol something that makes it a developer for sharper, more visible grain, without damaging its balance and keeping properties?

You could try and raise its pH considerably by adding hydroxide; either sodium or potassium would do. You'd also have to reduce development time and/or increase dilution. I can't vouch for its lifetime as a replenished developer in this scenario (or, arguably, in any scenario given the Fenton reaction issue, but let's not go there for a minute).

The 'problem' with XTOL in terms of increasing grain is its high sulfite content; if you reduce the sulfite (e.g. in a home-made version such as instant mytol), you could also get a bit more grain, but it would certainly influence its keeping properties. Which is to say that XTOL's fine-grained action is more or less inherent to it. If you don't like this aspect, I would sooner try and look for a different developer than try to make this one work the way you want it to. Especially since you want to run this as a replenished system; it's kind of tricky to modify the developer AND maintain predictable activity over a longer period of time.

 

[pentaxuser]

gotta love predictive texting... dark, er darn it!

This Jock didn't even notice the word "dark" Your sentence made sense to me - it's that's Celtic telepathy that we are imbued with

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

The reason people use XTOL is for finer grain. Find a different developer and move on.

Hahahahahahahaha

To me Sirius gave a right answer. Why are you laughing ???

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I knew that a Scots-Canadian would come up with a solution. So a solution in 8 posts, Juan.

Give it a go and tell us how it goes

pentaxuser

I'm sorry, pentax, I've used Xtol stock, replenished, 1+1, 1+2, 1+3, and I never liked the type of grain it produces.
I'm fine with people who think it's the best possible developer for them and for all their films and exposure indexes.
I prefer a different type of grain in all my negatives.
So, no solution for me from members saying "Xtol is good for me".
Thank you!

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I've read that D-23 is grainier and can be replenished. But you'll probably need to mix both yourself.

That would be a real option, though for me it's easier to buy my Perceptol here than buying Metol...
Let's see if there's any route with Xtol...

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Why don't you use Rodinal? Cheap as hell. What is the requirement for replenishing?

I used Rodinal for nearly 20 years.
It's good for large format and for low EIs, and those two are seldom part of my photography 20 years ago.
I don't like it for 35mm handheld photography, and I don't like its middle values lowering either, and as I said, I can't buy it.
Thank you.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

You could try and raise its pH considerably by adding hydroxide; either sodium or potassium would do. You'd also have to reduce development time and/or increase dilution. I can't vouch for its lifetime as a replenished developer in this scenario (or, arguably, in any scenario given the Fenton reaction issue, but let's not go there for a minute).

The 'problem' with XTOL in terms of increasing grain is its high sulfite content; if you reduce the sulfite (e.g. in a home-made version such as instant mytol), you could also get a bit more grain, but it would certainly influence its keeping properties. Which is to say that XTOL's fine-grained action is more or less inherent to it. If you don't like this aspect, I would sooner try and look for a different developer than try to make this one work the way you want it to. Especially since you want to run this as a replenished system; it's kind of tricky to modify the developer AND maintain predictable activity over a longer period of time.

Thak you very much, koraks, that was a good answer.
Maybe it's just not possible thinking of replenishment.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

To me Sirius gave a right answer. Why are you laughing ???

I didn't find that a good answer. Not even an answer to my question.
And I laugh because I'm satisfied with my photographs.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

I don't want to disturb anyone, so let's leave it...
I get beautiful sharp grain and beautiful tone with D-76, Perceptol, Microphen and FX-39II.
I don't really need a sharp grain version of Xtol, and I don't really need replenishment.
Thanks everyone.

 

[koraks]

If it ain't broken...don't fix it!

 

[John Wiegerink]

I don't want to disturb anyone, so let's leave it...
I get beautiful sharp grain and beautiful tone with D-76, Perceptol, Microphen and FX-39II.
I don't really need a sharp grain version of Xtol, and I don't really need replenishment.
Thanks everyone.

Juan,
Since you like to try different developer combinations, maybe you might want to look into Kodak DK-50. You seem to like D-76 and DK-50 isn't that far off from D-76. It's very easy to make, very clean working and should give you exactly the type of grain you seem to be looking for. I have even seen cans of DK-50 show up on eBay from time to time. Dilute DK-50 even more than suggested for normal use, and it acts just like FX1 developer. This is a very underrated developer, even for modern times. JohnW

 

[Paul Howell]

If you want sharp, more grain, Dk50 which can be replenished. Here in the US Photographers Formulary sells a version. Although not recommended for 35 because of the grain it was at one a favorite of large format shooters. If you mix your own you can find the formulas on line. This summer I'm going to be shoot a lot of 4X5 and thinking about DK50 with Foma 400 and 200.