CatLABS X FILM 320 Pro now available in 35mm and 120

[Oldwino]

. I’m really perplexed about film photographers who have bemoaned the demise of film for years and then crucify attempts to support film photography. I can’t explain that either. Can you?

it is interesting, considering that film production is seemingly teetering on a knife edge, and the major players insist that their viability rests on ever more price increases, that CatLabs is selling their new film at what could be described as “yesteryear” prices.
Are they selling it at a loss? Or is this some sort of break even price? Will they also have to resort to price increases in the future, or have they exposed Kodak‘s and Ilford‘s price gouging scheme?
Don’t get me wrong - I like the price a lot - but it does make me wonder how they can sell at this level, when Kodak insists that double is barely feasible.

 

[mshchem]

Price of Kentmere 400 is very reasonable. Last I bought from B&H 10 rolls, delivered was a bit over 50 USD. My favorite black and white film has always been Kodak TMY Tmax 400 souped in XTOL.

I do enjoy trying different things.

 

[MattKing]

I think you're fanning a fire that shouldn't be lit.

But who cares, anyway? It's just a company providing film to a dying market.

I'm not interested in a fire.
I'm interested in the film, and whether it can meet the needs of people who themselves might be interested in buying it.
The posting here seems to be rather tone deaf considering that this corner of the internet has a higher percentage of the potential users who care about things like ISO and other nerdy things that a fair few film photographers care about.
I'm talking about the marketing of the film. If you market it to this group of people the same way you market it to those who live on YouTube, you are going to turn off at least one of the constituencies.
Why do that?
CatLabs/Omer isn't exactly wet behind the ears when it comes to technical knowledge.
Perhaps the ISO speed of the film is known, and it is 80, and the decision has been made that marketing it as such would be fatal to marketing it to those other constituencies.
If so, I'd suggest that CatLabs spin it one way here, and spin it another way there.
Like I posted earlier, sell it here as an 80 ISO film (with a long toe) and an unusual spectral response. You can then add, if you wish, that many like how it behaves when under-exposed at an EI of 200 and then pushed. Just don't confuse the issue by putting an "ISO 320" into the description.

 

[Huss]

it is interesting, considering that film production is seemingly teetering on a knife edge, and the major players insist that their viability rests on ever more price increases, that CatLabs is selling their new film at what could be described as “yesteryear” prices.
Are they selling it at a loss? Or is this some sort of break even price? Will they also have to resort to price increases in the future, or have they exposed Kodak‘s and Ilford‘s price gouging scheme?
Don’t get me wrong - I like the price a lot - but it does make me wonder how they can sell at this level, when Kodak insists that double is barely feasible.

Kodak TriX is almost 50% more expensive than Ilford HP5.
I don’t know if Kodak’s business model is so bad that is the price level they need to survive at. Or they are playing us for fools.
Either way, I’m done buying Kodak film when I have cheaper and IMO better alternatives.

 

[mshchem]

Eastman Kodak is maxed out producing 35mm. Kodak Alaris is trying to make money. It's still a bit crazy with suppliers and distribution. Kodak can charge what they do because they are the King! The best of the best!

 

[Huss]

It showed up today. Loaded a roll into the greatest P&S ever made - the Rollei QZ 35W
Set the camera at ISO 200

 

[AgX]

The film has the designation "PRO".
I understand this as "for commercial use". But how many of those "1000's" who already bought this film actually intent to use it commercially? Or from another perspective: why is anyone who might use it commercially and asks questions about it, hinted at these "1000's".

 

[Agulliver]

Perhaps a poll is in order: who’s buying and who’s not and who’s waiting for

Still on the fence, mostly due to finances. I'll be heading to the USA in just over two weeks and could have some sent to my sister in-law ready for my arrival. I wasn't going to take a medium format camera there but I'm now thinking....Zeiss-Ikon folder, CatLabs film....might be fun. Plus...upon my return I am amused by the idea of photographing my kitties on CatLabs film.

CatLABS has said they have 1000s of customers who have purchased, shot, and processed their film. Maybe they are on another forum or Facebook or wherever.

Probably Instagram or Reddit. I just looked at Insta, they certainly have an active account there. No idea about Reddit. but the point is, most of the people who are actually out there shooting film, discussing it and sharing the results....aren't on Photrio at all. They're on social media sites most of us barely bother with....because we're old farts who spend days arguing over ISO standards, and whether every new film is Kentmere....and bemoaning the fact that it's not available in some obscure sheet film format at 50c per sheet.....and that when an attempt is made to semi stand process in sea water at 17F it doesn't look quite right in the shadows.....and that somehow the price of Kodachrome in 1954 is relevant to today's market.

I tend to want knowledge from actual adults, which is why I come here. But if I were honestly looking to see people sharing experience with CatLabs or any other film.....I'd be looking elsewhere. I just don't have the time because I'm too busy arguing over ISO standards

 

[miha]

Among developers printed on the carton D77 Kodak is obviously a typo. What about HC110 Ilford? Ilfotec HC or Kodak HC110?

 

[AgX]

But if "Kodak D 77" is a typo, which developer then is meant?
Kodak D97 is a high-contrast developer for cine sound- and print-films. As such it would be the weird one amongst the other developers given.
Or is this developer now common for taking films at the seemingly intended clientele?

After "EI ISO" now "Kodak D 77", this new film presents another riddle...

 

[Don_ih]

But if "Kodak D 77" is a typo, which developer then is meant?

D76. Continue along the row and you see it's for 1:1, where the line above (also D76) is for stock.

I'm talking about the marketing of the film. If you market it to this group of people the same way you market it to those who live on YouTube, you are going to turn off at least one of the constituencies.

Then let them do that. It's their error to make.

 

[brbo]

Has any Catlabs post been deleted?

Were any members told to just shut up and buy film instead of asking questions?

Who is being moderated here then?

 

[AgX]

D76. Continue along the row and you see it's for 1:1, where the line above (also D76) is for stock.

Yes, D-76 in its two concentration variants, that makes sense. I mainly looked at the developers designations and only glanced over the rest. I really should have been more alert.

 

[faberryman]

The typos on the box could easily be attributed to an intern, though I don't think "HC110 Ilford" is technically a typo.

 

[CatLABS]

it is interesting, considering that film production is seemingly teetering on a knife edge, and the major players insist that their viability rests on ever more price increases, that CatLabs is selling their new film at what could be described as “yesteryear” prices.
Are they selling it at a loss? Or is this some sort of break even price? Will they also have to resort to price increases in the future, or have they exposed Kodak‘s and Ilford‘s price gouging scheme?
Don’t get me wrong - I like the price a lot - but it does make me wonder how they can sell at this level, when Kodak insists that double is barely feasible.

One of the goals of bringing this film to market is the competitive price point. The only way this works is if we are able to offer a great film at a competitive price while still maintaining a wholly sustainable financial proposition for us as business. This price point stipulation was part of the reason it has taken this long to get this film out and ultimately, we could not be happier that we are able to pull this off.

If anything, future productions of this film will possibly have an even lower price, thanks for further economizing and increased efficiency in supply chain optimization.

Of course, all of this means nothing if no one buys film because they are too busy reading spectral sensitivity charts. , thankfully most people are getting the message and are in fact: shooting more film!

 

[CatLABS]

The typos on the box could easily be attributed to an intern, though I don't think "HC110 Ilford" is technically a typo.

They have long been fired

 

[Huss]

They have long been fired

I cant believe Dad fired me. Wait till Mum hears about this.

 

[mshchem]

I cant believe Dad fired me. Wait till Mum hears about this.

 

[pentaxuser]

If anything, future productions of this film will possibly have an even lower price, thanks for further economizing and increased efficiency in supply chain optimization.

I take it this will be a relative price rather than an absolute one i.e. your film price will rise with increasing costs but other economies such as you have mentioned will hopefully result in the Catlabs 320 price being even less relatively speaking to those of other b&w films

Will the increased efficiency in supply chain optimisation affect only your U.S. price or will it make a difference to other markets' prices

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Sal Santamaura]

I think a fair number of people here are also active on the other social media outlets, including myself on Facebook, Instagram, and Discord. So you're counting a lot of people twice or three times. It's not a binary thing; people on Photrio know how to use the internet too.

I strongly suspect that very few, if any, of posters in this thread who repeatedly complain here about Omer's product documentation (or any other aspect of the film) are active on "social media" sites where today's real film marketing takes place. If those curmudgeons visit such places, it's probably to complain about the young people who populate them, as well as to make public note of all the technical errors/omissions being committed there. Meanhwhile, Omer carries on, likely laughing at this thread all the way to selling out his current film production to those who "are getting the message" i.e. not complainers on PHOTRIO:

One of the goals of bringing this film to market is the competitive price point. The only way this works is if we are able to offer a great film at a competitive price while still maintaining a wholly sustainable financial proposition for us as business. This price point stipulation was part of the reason it has taken this long to get this film out and ultimately, we could not be happier that we are able to pull this off.

If anything, future productions of this film will possibly have an even lower price, thanks for further economizing and increased efficiency in supply chain optimization.

Of course, all of this means nothing if no one buys film because they are too busy reading spectral sensitivity charts. , thankfully most people are getting the message and are in fact: shooting more film!

 

[Huss]

I take it this will be a relative price rather than an absolute one i.e. your film price will rise with increasing costs but other economies such as you have mentioned will hopefully result in the Catlabs 320 price being even less relatively speaking to those of other b&w films

Will the increased efficiency in supply chain optimisation affect only your U.S. price or will it make a difference to other markets' prices

Thanks

pentaxuser

There is a prominent economic school of thought now that much of this inflation is ‘fake’, that is corporations are using it as an excuse to raise prices, but are raising prices far beyond what could be attributed to the current rate of inflation or even supply chain issues.
The huge red flag is that many are reporting record profits, which does not suggest tough times for them…

 

[faberryman]

I strongly suspect that very few, if any, of posters in this thread who repeatedly complain here about Omer's product documentation (or any other aspect of the film) are active on "social media" sites where today's real film marketing takes place.

Admittedly, I am not a big follower of social media, but I looked at Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and Reddit and did not see very much marketing or discussion of CatLABS film. I did see that CatLABS posted a photo of a hand holding a couple of boxes of film in front of a brick wall. It is sort of a theme in their advertising because they have posted photos of a hand holding a lot of other camera related stuff in front of a brick wall. The few comments I did see ranged from "Cool, dude" to "It's Double-X". Maybe news and discussion of the film is spreading like wildfire elsewhere. I would appreciate someone posting some links to social media sites where all this activity is going on so I can keep up.

 

[CatLABS]

I take it this will be a relative price rather than an absolute one i.e. your film price will rise with increasing costs but other economies such as you have mentioned will hopefully result in the Catlabs 320 price being even less relatively speaking to those of other b&w films

Will the increased efficiency in supply chain optimisation affect only your U.S. price or will it make a difference to other markets' prices

Thanks

pentaxuser

I think i finally figured out the problem here:
Instead of "reading between the lines" and making far reaching assumptions, one could just read what i wrote. Nothing more, nothing less.
If one goes out of the way to avoid the simple meaning of things plainly laid out before them, the end is often some ludicrous conspiracy theory with little (or none, in this case) contact with reality, this post, like others before it then goes to put word in my mouth, that i did not speak and that could not be father from the ones i did.

For decades (and mostly to this very day), film companies relied on archaic models of international distribution resulting in massive discrepancies in pricing between various regional markets. These were massive, multinational, mega million dollar business. Our distribution model is stripped down to the bare bone, as far as possible, to avoid this issue. The base price of our film, if purchased from outside the US, for a single roll, might be prohibitive. When you buy 10, the shipping component is reduced to a 10-15% "landed cost" on top of the base price, which is the same for everyone, this is an 80-85% price reduction for international buyers.
FWIW, we actually subsidize a part of the international shipping component because we recognize it might be off putting right of the mark, for some, to see the actual shipping cost for a single roll of film.

If you buy more than 10, say 20 or 30 rolls, that "landed cost" is reduced by another 50-60% per 10 rolls.

Now, i did write 3.1 paragraphs here with lots of info, vague comments, philosophical observations about the world and other things, but please, do not read too much into it, between the lines or words. If the face value of what i wrote is not enough (and no doubt for many here it wont be), just consider you might want to direct the speculative assumptions inwards and channel your inner Scott Seiss for a bit .

 

[BrianShaw]

… so our work here is complete. Is that a fair assumption?

 

[warden]

I strongly suspect that very few, if any, of posters in this thread who repeatedly complain here about Omer's product documentation (or any other aspect of the film) are active on "social media" sites where today's real film marketing takes place. If those curmudgeons visit such places, it's probably to complain about the young people who populate them, as well as to make public note of all the technical errors/omissions being committed there. Meanhwhile, Omer carries on, likely laughing at this thread all the way to selling out his current film production to those who "are getting the message" i.e. not complainers on PHOTRIO:

I made no distinction between curmudgeons and non-curmudgeons, or young versus old and your other projections, I just said that people who read content at Photrio can and do read content on social media as well. And anyone that has checked the Catlabs Instagram feed can see that they were asked for data sheets there too, so it's not just a Photrio thing. Some photographers like to review technical info, even when they are "getting the message" on Instagram.