CatLABS X FILM 320 Pro now available in 35mm and 120

It would seem to me that those who are fine with the new film and all the information we have on it are completely satisfied probably do not need to participate any longer, nor for that matter do those are not so fine with the film and information available

We may have reached a genuine end point for the thread from a practical aspect

So is there any point in it continuing? I'd have thought not

pentaxuser

MattKing said:

CatLabs comes here, publishes the same confusing and insulting market-speak shared everywhere else, and then responds with further insults when people who can make use of better information ask for it.
On this forum, CatLabs got some push-back. None of that push-back is about the film. All of it is about the seller's "marketing" and behavior.

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And now Omer is angry about the treatment he's received, so he responds by insulting the forum and its participants. Tells me everything I need to know.

pentaxuser said:

It would seem to me that those who are fine with the new film and all the information we have on it are completely satisfied probably do not need to participate any longer, nor for that matter do those are not so fine with the film and information available

We may have reached a genuine end point for the thread from a practical aspect

So is there any point in it continuing? I'd have thought not

pentaxuser

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I would have phrased the first paragraph inversely but implore folks to meditate, if only briefly, on the intended message. It’s not looking positively on either side of the coin.

I rarely support thread closure suggestions and abhor prophylactic thread closure by the moderator. In this case, though, the opportunity might be ripe, if not overdue. I shall not give my opinion on why this ugly thread persisted with such open anger by some Photrio old-timers and/or “management” so long while some much less controversial were shut down prematurely.

“Photrio” just doesn’t like Omer or CatLab and never will despite efforts to support and promote analog photography… there, it’s been said.

That said, as they say… I still have valid questions on the table about backing paper, spools, sticky tabs, and the possibility of 620 in the future.

I may have phrased my post clumsily but frankly CatLABs did seem to want to insult those here who have concerns about is new film which for a business that seeks to sell film seems like strange behaviour. So my conclusion is that CatLABs has written off, if not whole site called Photrio then at least an appreciable portion and has done so in such a way that it seems to be indicating that it is totally fed-up with this site.

If this sis the case then why will it bother to engage with Photrio again when to do so risks some of us enraging it again?

So if enough of us enrage it this way and it no longer wants to engage with Photrio because of our perceived unreasonable behaviour then why bother with other than an announcement in future? Maybe this will be the sum of its engagement with Photrio in the future?

Equally if those who have issues continue to pursue their arguments all they succeed in doing is to enrage CatLABs and possibly drive it to more extreme behaviour in retaliation. It does not seem to me that either sets of parties can achieve any kind of reconciliation

So we are in a zero sum gain in this thread so why isn't the best outcome for us to recognise this, let matters lie and allow the thread to die a natural death ?

pentaxuser

Huss said:

This site would scare young people away, unless they are looking for some old fart to yell at them telling them they are doing it wrong.

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It can and does. Two friends in their twenties have told me they found Photrio, lurked for a while and ran for the hills....so to speak. I avoided APUG for nearly a year a while back because of the sheer level of bitterness and negativity here....and the unwelcoming attitude of some stalwarts.

Alex Benjamin said:

I believe his point is—and I agree with it, although would have stated it differently—that the very idea of "community" has become irrelevant. That's the old web, of 15-20 years ago, and it's not longer what people, especially the younger generation, are looking for. They don't want to discuss, they want to experience, they want an experience that's meaningful to them, as individuals. Hence the popularity of YouTube videos on photography. No community there. Just a combination of "try this, or try this, or try this, and eventually you'll find something you like," and "here's how you can do it at home." Advantage of this is you quickly get to the point and don't have to go through a 20-page thread with one billion unnecessary digressions.

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That's more or less what I see. It's not that the young whippersnappers don't want to learn, but they're not especially interested in being lectured by us old farts ad infinitum on thing that - for the time being at least - are not relevant to them. And tell me, those of us who cut our photographic teeth as young children in the 80s or before....were we interested in data sheets and receiving long instructions from our elders....or did we want to get out there and shoot? Sure, I'd ask "What's a good film for photographing my cat" or "Any tips for using my camera at school to photograph my friends?"....but I wanted (and got) pointers....not an endless lecture on f-stops, shutter speeds, depth of field and whether tri-x had better grain than HP4, or if stand developing in sea water was the ultimate goal of the serious photographer.

I did have a rudamentary understanding of f-stops and shutter speeds, but the details came later when I wanted to hone my technique....and came largely from trial and error. In that sense, the kids of today are no different. They want some basic instruction so they don't waste an entire film with a basic error and then to go out and try it. They're never going to pick up a copy of the Ilford Manual of Photography.

And yes. Discussion as we Gen-X and boomers know it is dying. Most younger people don't want to converse and discuss as we do. So you know what? I practise that with people who still enjoy it. And with the younger people who I encounter with film cameras.....I more or less leave them to it unless they specifically ask a question.

(most younger people....I have had most edifying, long conversations with people in their early 20s recently. But that's the exception. It's not how they go about things. And they quite possibly experience a richer life by trying more experiences than most of us ever did.

And sure...if you want a full data sheet and won't buy a film until you've seen it....then CatLabs 320 isn't for you. I don't think I even knew data sheets existed until I'd been practising photography for 25 years or more. Does one become an accomplished photographer by reading books, or by taking photos? I'd argue both....but while reading books alone won't achieve that....taking photos and experimenting just might.

paulbarden said:

And now Omer is angry about the treatment he's received, so he responds by insulting the forum and its participants.
Catlabs isn't getting a penny from me as a result. Not if it were the LAST film on Earth. I'm not in the habit of rewarding angry, petulant people by giving them $$$.

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He's not angry. He is taking the piss. And it's funny....because to be quite brutally honest the level of entitlement demonstrated by some here is quite staggering. The fact that they don't see it, is actually worrying.

pentaxuser said:

If this sis (sic) the case then why will it bother to engage with Photrio again when to do so risks some of us enraging it again?

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For this reason… Photrio is an open forum. He, Omer, who we know to be a man and not a gender-free entity, should be as welcomed as anyone else to post and participate. Using the term "it" seems quite passive-aggressive. Just sayin'. There is no TOS stating that any participant comply with the prevailing opinion of select members. Photrio isn’t a gang yet gang-like behavior seems to happen occasionally. In this case it seems “institutionally supported”.

Sad and embarrassing!!

If someone is enraged because they are getting the answer they want perhaps looking in the mirror and a bit of self-reflection is in order.

I’m out… taking pictures today.

paulbarden said:

And now Omer is angry about the treatment he's received, so he responds by insulting the forum and its participants. Tells me everything I need to know.

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Agulliver said:

He's not angry. He is taking the piss. And it's funny....because to be quite brutally honest the level of entitlement demonstrated by some here is quite staggering. The fact that they don't see it, is actually worrying.

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To translate from the British to American English, Omer's joking/mocking, not angry. I agree with Agulliver except for his last sentence. The entitlement isn't worrying, since one cannot accomplish anything with worry. Especially when said entitlement is endemic among boomers. And I are one.

Agulliver said:

And tell me, those of us who cut our photographic teeth as young children in the 80s or before....were we interested in data sheets and receiving long instructions from our elders....or did we want to get out there and shoot?

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I read books and sought out formal instruction. I read the data sheets. How else were you going to find out how long to develop your film, or how long to keep it in the stop bath, or how long to fix it? You definitely had to read the data sheet to figure out how to use hypo clearing agent. Sure, I shot a lot and spent a lot of time in the darkroom, but I wasn't just winging it. And I did learn from instructors who were older than I was. I still read books and data sheets, and undertake formal instruction in the form of classes at my community college and workshops. I also access the internet for all sorts of information, and seek out information on forums from people that know more about aspects of photography than I do whether they are my elders or not. Of course, everyone learns differently, so alternate approaches may work too.

faberryman said:

I read books and sought out formal instruction. I read the data sheets. How else were you going to find out how long to develop your film, or how long to keep it in the stop bath, or how long to fix it?

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It says on the box. And all advice, even those from the wise old photographers and the books, is usually to start there and experiment until you find what you personally like.

To be honest I see gentle fun-poking from Omer/Catlabs and outright insulting angry posts from Photrio members towards him.

I'm with those who feel that the angry people are those asking questions and who aren't getting their preferred answer. THe answer is simply that if data sheets, graphs, numbers and technical info are your bag....don't buy this film. Because no amount of people actually testing it, posting samples and describing their experience will be what you're looking for.

But equally, getting angry and poking fun at people who prefer to learn by trying things out isn't helpful.

To be clear, I'm not angry.....just resigned to the sad fact that most people my age and older are seeing the world change and are utterly unable to cope...so they just get angry and shout. Much like their (grand)parents who couldn't understand Rock and Roll, or thought that jazz might bring down Western civilisation because it's devotees weren't all white and appeared to be actually having fun. The millenial generation specifically has *had* to change it's values compared to gen-x and boomers. Because the world we've unleashed them into is very different from that we prepared them for.

Agulliver said:

It says on the box.

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I don't have a Tri-X box either from 1973 or from 2022, so I don't know with certainty whether developing information was or is on the box. I remember using the data sheets. They would sometimes get wet on the counter when I was developing and would easily tear. It is just a fact of life that stainless steel tanks leak, especially after you have dropped them on the floor a couple of times. I mean when you are fumbling around in the dark trying to find the tank and lid after having loaded your film on the reel, it happens. Then you have to fumble around in the dark on your hands and knees trying to find them. Of course, after you track them down, then you have to find the reel again. Hopefully, you didn't leave it on the edge of the counter. Here's a hint: don't turn on the lights. Anyway, fortunately, not only do you get a fresh sensor with every new roll of film, you also get a fresh data sheet. Developing information for current Tri-X, among other things, is in the data sheet.


I don't know how Kodak could have fit all that developing information on the box, but maybe they printed it in very small letters. Maybe my memory is what it is because back then I threw away the box and kept the data sheet instead of throwing away the data sheet and keeping the box. That could have been the start of all my troubles.

If I had just learned to go with the box, I could be shooting CatLABS' film at "EI ISO 320", instead of CatLABS recommended "200 ISO". But no, I had to seek out more information. What was I thinking?

I just stumbled on a thread about Catlabs 320 Pro in a "Medium&Large Format film Photography" Facebook group. A user posted observations on this film, saying it's very tricky not to blow highlights in contrasty scenes.

The most clever response on FB so far was that it's a shutter problem, because indoor shots were much better.

On Photrio this user would be told that he should expose film at 100 and cut down on development time. Because we know, from experience, that this is an aerial surveillance film and a lot of us have shot a bunch of film like that.

Of course, the "new wave" Photrio would tell him that blown highlight (even if he doesn't like them and was told that film has those pleasing rolling off of highlights) are the only way that separates him from the stinking angry old boomers.


If you were in that situation, which answer would you trust to be the best solution to the problem?

CatLABS said:

I volunteer on a "neighborhood council" where the vast majority of voices are boomers yelling at the world they have been at it for 30+ years so they deserve unquestioned respect and their design ideas are the only ones that could possibly considered, followed by often endless tirades about how they know what "the kids of today" want.

BS of this level has not been seen here for a while, though admittedly, i do not follow APUG very closely for some years, when i did, this was a common trope here. Ultimately, nothing has fundamentally changed. Still sounding like NIIMBY boomers telling the world they know best, gate keeping and explaining to the youth they know what the youth want and what the youth should have.

Has been for a long time....

...despite the best efforts of "those young kids" who know nothing because they did not have baptism by forum firestorm on when AOL was a thing.

Anecdotally, i grew up with dial up modems, ICQ, AOL, mIRC and all i can tell you about "cutting your teeth on compuserve" is that you all must watch this video from one of the best writers and video makers in the world today, to see just how slowly you have progressed:
You are all taking to yourselves.
Ironic, comical, sad? just like in an epic rap battle of history, you decide.

Much like this forum, the neighborhood groups are i volunteer with in decline, finding it near impossible to recruit "young blood", mostly because of the predominant voices in the room that are behaving much in the way this forum does. As a somewhat young person, i can tell you first hand, not only is there nothing of value for anyone to learn here through a new thread not found with a google search, the way it might be learnt is hurtful, traumatic and enough to turn someone away from wanting to do what they came here for, shoot more film. Yall have shot yourself in the leg long ago, nothing new here, but this level of still whining and ranting about how you are the center of the conversation is ludicrous at best. Its clear that you want people like me to leave you alone, not to bother you if i wont "behave" and respect your every command, then wonder why so few people use this forum. Keep talking amongst yourselves, you are making great progress here and a few of us are indeed having a good laugh.

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Great video!!!!

brbo said:

If you were in that situation, which answer would you trust to be the best solution to the problem?

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It's a shutter problem? No, no, wait, wait, gimme a second, I know this one...

faberryman said:

It's a shutter problem? No, no, wait, wait, gimme a second, I know this one...

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To be honest, it's a fair shot (higher speeds not working properly would create overexposure for outdoor shots). But, if you can "read" the negative, you can come up with a much more probable cause.

If this thread keeps up the forum may need another name change.

May I suggest Pho-Trollio.

Now I'll do my good deed for the day and throw a little food under the bridge.

CatLabs just announced the return of film X80 in 8x10!

Fantastic!

Starve a Troll and feed the Cat!

Thanks Brian. I was simply using the word "it " as a reference to CatLABS in the same way that I'd refer to Ilford or more properly Harman Technology as I wasn't sure how much of Catlabs is Omer. It now appears that he, Omer, may be the whole of CatLABS and CatLABs is entirely him. So is he the sole owner and he, Omer , is effectively CatLABS? Does he prefer that when referencing CatLABs we refer to him as Omer

The latter is less formal, friendlier and of course the same thing if he is in effect the sole owner this CatLABs. As I said I have no historical baggage to carry here and I am happy to refer to Omer by that if that is what he prefers. It was just that in the first announcement the name at the bottom was CatLABS and in none of the subsequent posts does he mention or sign off as Omer

pentaxuser

lecarp said:

CatLabs just announced the return of film X80 in 8x10!

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For those who like Shanghai GP3, this makes acquisition easier.

CatLABS said:

BS of this level has not been seen here for a while,...

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Well, you likely will consider me now an old fart buried under a rock, but out of a population around of lets say 1,5 million I know in person 5 people with an own darkroom, all over 30 and all photographic artists. None of the young enthusiasts I met was interested in having a darkroom. To the contrary, I met a lot of young people who tried film photography, typically by Lomography cameras and after some time skipped it again. And a rise in interest in darkroom work at first year photo students (at academies that still have got a darkroom...) does not necessarily mean a remaining interest beyond that introductory course, and I do not see such.

Well, at the risk of feeding the trolls, presenting overexaggerated, often wholly erroneous, personal and or anecdotal experiences as universal truths and then demanding they be accepted as facts is a commonly used boomer trope:

AgX said:

but out of a population around of lets say 1,5 million I know in person 5 people with an own darkroom, all over 30 and all photographic artists.

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Considering the above, this self assessment is pretty accurate:

AgX said:

Well, you likely will consider me now an old fart buried under a rock...

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Its safe to say that your window into the world, despite including 1.5 million people, might not have an accurate representation of reality. Alas, this seems to be the problem with ardent stalwart 'gate keepers of film' of this forum. You already know the absolute facts and truths of the universe. This is flat earth level blindfold mind bending.

pentaxuser said:

I was simply using the word "it " as a reference to CatLABS in the same way that I'd refer to Ilford or more properly Harman Technology

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Dear Pentaxuser,

I misunderstood your intent andI sincerely apologize.

After contemplating your reply and explanation I contacted my editor and, as expected, he said it depends on context and preferences, including which variant of English is being spoken/written. In all of my professional writing me and my organization prefer “they” and that is my inherent bias.

He, my editor, pointed me to several online commentaries on this topic. So it seems that we are both right and neither wrong. Oddly though, according to this reference we seem to be speaking each other’s variant of English.


In summary, the appropriate pronouns when referring to an organization are either it or they, whereas when referring to an individual it is appropriate to refer to him or her or he or she or they (when plural)… and in CaliforniaUSA there’s a third option but I can’t recall what it is.

Knowing the name of the company owner, I suppose, makes communication a bit more personal and personable but is not essential. CatLabs, the organization owned by Omer, seems to prefer to identify organizationally. I understand and respect that.

What next?
Maybe a CatLabs color film!

CatLABS said:

Well, at the risk of feeding the trolls, presenting overexaggerated, often wholly erroneous, personal and or anecdotal experiences as universal truths and then demanding they be accepted as facts is a commonly used boomer trope:

Considering the above, this self assessment is pretty accurate:

Its safe to say that your window into the world, despite including 1.5 million people, might not have an accurate representation of reality. Alas, this seems to be the problem with ardent stalwart 'gate keepers of film' of this forum. You already know the absolute facts and truths of the universe. This is flat earth level blindfold mind bending.

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Keep in mind that you wrote this ignorant of my involvement, next to other parts of the photographic world, in the world of design- and art-academies.

And the same you say about me I can say about you and your involvement. Looking at the photographic world through your shopwindow will let you see just those interested...

THIS IS LIKE THE OLD SOAPBOX! CAN WE SOMEHOW TIE CATLABS INTO VOTING BY MAIL??

BrianShaw said:

Dear Pentaxuser,

I misunderstood your intent andI sincerely apologize.

After contemplating your reply and explanation I contacted my editor and, as expected, he said it depends on context and preferences, including which variant of English is being spoken/written. In all of my professional writing me and my organization prefer “they” and that is my inherent bias.

He, my editor, pointed me to several online commentaries on this topic. So it seems that we are both right and neither wrong. Oddly though, according to this reference we seem to be speaking each other’s variant of English.

How do you refer to a company in third person: it or they? – Language Editing

The choice of it or they to refer to a company is a matter of style. Discover which pronoun for the word "company" you should use in formal writing.

www.languageediting.com

In summary, the appropriate pronouns when referring to an organization are either it or they, whereas when referring to an individual it is appropriate to refer to him or her or he or she or they (when plural)… and in CaliforniaUSA there’s a third option but I can’t recall what it is.

Knowing the name of the company owner, I suppose, makes communication a bit more personal and personable but is not essential. CatLabs, the organization owned by Omer, seems to prefer to identify organizationally. I understand and respect that.

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That's a most ironic exchange. Typically (despite what your "editor" says) Americans use "it" and British/Europeans use "they," especially on this forum. Yet, in this thread, the Brit used "it" and you thought he should have used "he." More entertainment!

I always insist on "it" to reflect the reality that, for non-small businesses such as Kodak, HARMAN, etc., the discussion is about a single corporate entity. If such entities benefit from liability and other protections that incorporation bestows, damned if I'll "humanize" them. Regardless of what some guy once said, corporations are not people. To the best of my knowledge, Omer is Catlabs, so my comments about his posts refer to him by name.

mshchem said:

THIS IS LIKE THE OLD SOAPBOX!...

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Nah, the Feedback and Discussion category has recently assumed that role.