canterbury 5-7 October 2007

Leon · Jul 20, 2007

FrankB said:
Leon - Will Canterbury still be there in October or will it have sunk like Manchester is currently doing?!

rain - ? We've had about 2 mm of it today. I just had supper in the garden wearing my fave flip-flops and short trousers supping a nice mug of Old Peculiar thinking, it's getting a bit hot - "slap some more of the Factor 25 on for me Helen?"

lol

FrankB · Jul 20, 2007

Typical.

If I wanted to do that right now I'd need either wellies or waterwings (and, to be strictly accurate, a wife called Helen! ).

Dave Miller · Jul 20, 2007

Leon said:
i take your point Dave.

The man with the Stainless Socks in Chilham, Leon

You're welcome to it.

Dave Miller · Jul 20, 2007

FrankB said:
Typical.

If I wanted to do that right now I'd need either wellies or waterwings (and, to be strictly accurate, a wife called Helen! ).

And some Factor 25. Is that ISO or ASA:confused:

pyrometol · Jul 21, 2007

What about hybrid prints? Namely pictures taken on film but printed digitally? I find that traditional printing in colour a) very time consuming, b) not very satisfactory compared with digital printing. I have a photographic friend in Plymouth who has recently returned from a holiday in Australia and she told me that she met quite a few aussie medium format snappers printing digitally. And in the mono portfolio I run for the South-West one chap does it all the time. An old Olympus, Ilford XP2 but his prints via his computer. Is it more ethical to digi print colour yourself or take your picture to Happy Snaps who will then print it for you? In my book the latter is cheating! What's all this talk of floods? Here we are watering the garden of an evening. Come to sunny Exmouth for your holidays! John Stred (aka pyrometol)

Sandeha Lynch · Jul 21, 2007

There's nothing wrong with hybrid prints, John. It's so good, in fact, that there are endless forums and groups set up for it. I was shooting film and printing ink for ages, until my printer crapped out on me - and that's when I wasn't shooting digital.

The question weren't about ethics, though. The question were about APUG. I have subscribed here precisely because it's a resource for wet printers. (Gee, did that sound right?)

FrankB · Jul 21, 2007

Sandeha Lynch said:
The question weren't about ethics, though. The question were about APUG. I have subscribed here precisely because it's a resource for wet printers. (Gee, did that sound right?)

Aye lad, nowt wrong wi it!

And if you want some water, John you can have some of ours! :rolleyes:

David H. Bebbington · Jul 22, 2007

Dave Miller said:
It's gone vary quiet.

The "quietness" was in part due to my taking the time to consider if a response was appropriate, and if so what it should be.

I of course recognise that APUG is intended for analog photography users, as the title says. It has seemed in the past that my presence as a declared film capture/digital output worker was accepted, this even seemed the case at last autumn's APUG meeting, which I attended.

However, it seems the position has changed, primarily due to the strong opinions of one individual. Two side issues immediately come to mind:
1) If analog wet-process images are clearly superior, why should anyone fear having their images of this kind placed side by side with digital? and
2) Who exactly is empowered to define APUG policy?
but I shall leave these to one side and proceed to what I feel is the main question.

I have made efforts, through reading past postings, to understand the thinking of the individual in question. It would seem that, disappointed by his own efforts at digital printing a few years ago, he has concluded that all digital prints at all times and by all photographers are automatically garbage. This, to my mind, is a rather wild extrapolation, since it firstly dismisses in a very arrogant und above all uninformed way the decision of thousands of professionals world-wide, including myself, who are intimately aware of the pros and cons of both analog and digital technology and highly skilled in both but prefer the latter, and secondly by implication suggests that the individual's own work embodies the opposite of digital mediocrity, namely analog excellence, whereas my experience has been that this work struggles and fails in conceptual and emotional terms to rise above the level of threadbare cliché, while on a technical level in no way displaying the superlative skill level in analog printing which the individual himself clearly believes he possesses.

Sorry to be so direct, but if I attend a gathering of photographers, I am looking for exciting visual ideas and bold personal statements, hopefully something new that I haven't seen before - blinkered bigotry is just not my thing. I have accordingly decided not to attend any further APUG gatherings, and it would not take too many more postings along the lines of "digital imaging = masturbation" and the like for me to leave APUG completely, notwithstanding that I find certain elements interesting and informative.

Regards,

David

CarlRadford · Jul 22, 2007

David I am sure you'd still be welcomed by many - but just don't bring digital prints! Analog is Analog and there are plenty of other forums for hybrid work. It'd be like bringing an Audi to a Jaguar Owners Club Gathering - nothing wrong with the Audi its just a Jaguar Owners Meeting! I have some lovely digital prints that others have made and a couple of Alt Process prints from digital negs too - I will learn to make digital negs but I would have the good grace to show that at a hybrid gathering!

Take care, Carl

Leon · Jul 22, 2007

David - I was of the same mind as Carl ... in fact, it didnt worry me if people did bring digi prints along - however, after your last offering to this discussion, I'd have to say I'd rather you werent coming if this is how you contribute to civil debate. You have singled out one member of this discussion (I'm not sure which one even, there were at least 2 saying they werent comfortable with digi prints being present), then directly attacked their skill and artistic ability in a completely unprovoked way. this is no way to respond to other APUG members. It is a personal insult and is a childish and unwelcome way to behave. I have met all the people contributing here, as have you, and I know they would not be saying what they are to insult you, only expressing opinions - and they do have a point, seeing as this is a site for analogue photography.

I take your attempts at tin-pot psychology as a way of belittling the person in question utterly offensive.

BarryWilkinson · Jul 22, 2007

Leon said:
I take your attempts at tin-pot psychology as a way of belittling the person in question utterly offensive.

I have to agree with Leon. Rubbishing someone's work simply because he does not agree with you is totally unacceptable behavior in a public forum.

Barry

Dave Miller · Jul 22, 2007

David,
A quote from the APUG front page:

“APUG.ORG is an international community of like minded individuals devoted to traditional (non-digital) photographic processes. We are an active photographic community; our forums contain a highly detailed archive of traditional and historic photographic processes.”

A further quote from the APUG Gallery section:

“PLEASE refrain from posting any images that have been manipulated digitally such as converting color images to black and white, Photoshop filtering tricks, etc. Also no multi-media/mixed media hybrid images or hybrid images in general, this includes digitally enlarged negatives which are then contact printed (see our sister site hybridphoto.com if you are interested in sharing such work). All images posted should be a representation of 100% traditional work, typically negative scans or print scans produced from a 100% traditional workflow.
The uploaded image should be the best representation of the actual final print and nothing more. We still accept neg scans in the galleries. We accept that some adjustment of contrast, brightness and sharpness may be needed to match the physical print.
Failure to follow the above rules will result in deletion of your image. Please respect the spirit of this community and our desire to share scans of 100% traditional based work in the galleries. If you understand the above rules then click below to continue. Thank You.”

I’m extremely sorry that I have offended you, or indeed anyone else regarding the subject of digital inclusion, but I think the statements above delineate APUG’s reason for existing, and I feel that the strength of the gatherings lie in retaining the basic sentiments expressed above. It is that sentiment that I sort to emphasize in my regrettably blunt post.

FrankB · Jul 22, 2007

David - If that's the way you feel then that's your choice. I think it's regrettable that you've chosen to express it in this manner. If I've caused you offence that was not my intention, but your choosing to take offence does not change my opinion.

APUG policy is stated on the front page of the site. My understanding of UK Gathering policy (such as it is!) has been derived from that statement and (as I've already said) is subject to the wishes of the majority of attendees.

Bluntly, after your last post, if you want to take your bat and ball home I wouldn't dream of stopping you.

Everyone else - This thread is for the Canterbury Gathering, which looks to be one of the best attended and most promising so far! It's one of the two times a year that we get together as a group with the shared interest of traditional photography (and beer! ). Let's keep the thread on the rails.

Anyone got any venue suggestions for local shoots?

Where's the best pub lunch in the area?

Leon · Jul 22, 2007

good idea - matter done with - lets move on.

Frank. Boughton is not too far from Faversham, Whistable/ Seasalter and canterbury, all of which have a wealth of good pubs etc for lunches. so wherever we end up at lunchtime, there'll be good stuff on offer

Brook Hill · Jul 22, 2007

David,
It is unfair to pick on one individual to attack for APUG policy. The policy is clearly stated on the home page by the APUG founder as quoted by Dave.
My personal feelings are that I enjoy analogue and do not get any satisfaction on digital. I do not criticise digital workers nor indeed amateur singers, artists etc. each to his own. The only problem I have with the digital world is that every photographic outlet, camera clubs, the press, friends and associates etc. are saturated with digital workers who feel compelled to rubbish the analogue worker i.e. me, and treat me as someone with low intelligence who should be consigned to an early grave. Even a monochrome group I have recently joined has an increasing trend where members recently taking up the digital process feel compelled to go on at great length to say all dark rooms should be consigned to the scrap heap. I do find this constant assault on my HOBBY depressing and demoralising. The one haven I have found is APUG where I do not feel alone and isolated and where I can learn about a process which is relevant to what I do.
Let the outside world judge the end product, whether its from chemicals, computer or paint brush but please allow one organisation to exist which deals with the practical techniques of chemical prints.
I enjoyed your company David at last autumn's meet and hope to enjoy your company this autumn but please respect the spirit of APUG.

Tony

Bob F. · Jul 22, 2007

I make one simple statement on this and will not discuss it in this thread again.

David, if you want the simple truth, I was also somewhat put out by the appearance of your inkjets at the last autumn meeting in Norfolk. Like others, I did not say anything at the time, partly out of good manners towards someone I did not know, but mainly from not wishing to start a pointless argument at an otherwise convivial meeting.

I now see that was an error on my part as it led you to believe something that was not in fact the case. For that misdirection, I apologise. I will not comment directly on your post except to say that I believe you own Dave Miller a much greater one.

Regards, Bob.

CarlRadford · Jul 22, 2007

Plenty of interesting stuff to make images of around the Ramsgate, Broadstairs and Margate coastlines too. If my little sister has an interesting archaeology dig on I will see if a visit can be arranged - however, these are normally difficult to make images of!

FrankB · Jul 22, 2007

Images or not Carl, if it could be arranged and wouldn't be an inconvenience I'd be most interested in paying a visit. I'm hanging around an extra night, so could maybe squeeze it in after the Gathering proper has disbanded if it isn't of general photographic interest.

This is an area of the country that I haven't really visited before, so any suggestions for locations are very much appreciated.

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 22, 2007

As far as "what's appropriate for an APUG gathering," as I see it, this is a member organized function (as opposed to, say, The APUG Conference), so it's really up to the people who are organizing the function to decide what the priorities are.

We've had some gatherings here in New York, where we've gotten together to shoot, and maybe there were some people from APUG and a few from the LF forum and a couple of friends from workshops at ICP or elsewhere, and it's all worked out, and everyone got along and learned from each other.

CarlRadford · Jul 22, 2007

Need to wait till closer to the time...

for sure but little sister is Director of Trust for Thanet Archaeology - http://www.thanetarch.co.uk/ - so hopefully they will be working on something of interest at the time we are gathered.

FrankB said:
Images or not Carl, if it could be arranged and wouldn't be an inconvenience I'd be most interested in paying a visit. I'm hanging around an extra night, so could maybe squeeze it in after the Gathering proper has disbanded if it isn't of general photographic interest.

This is an area of the country that I haven't really visited before, so any suggestions for locations are very much appreciated.

Leon · Jul 22, 2007

FrankB said:
Images or not Carl, if it could be arranged and wouldn't be an inconvenience I'd be most interested in paying a visit. I'm hanging around an extra night, so could maybe squeeze it in after the Gathering proper has disbanded if it isn't of general photographic interest.

This is an area of the country that I haven't really visited before, so any suggestions for locations are very much appreciated.

Frank - I was hoping to drag you on a visit to the Romney Marshes and Dungeness on Sunday, but if the pull of Planet-Thanet has you hooked, I dont mind that either.

CarlRadford · Jul 22, 2007

Romney Marsh...

& Dungeness win

Leon said:
Frank - I was hoping to drag you on a visit to the Romney Marshes and Dungeness on Sunday, but if the pull of Planet-Thanet has you hooked, I dont mind that either.

FrankB · Jul 22, 2007

Oh blimey! An embarassment of riches! Can we wait until closer to the time before I make a call?

Thank you both very much! Looks rather like I'm buying the ale...!

Mark Burley · Jul 22, 2007

Marshes or Dungeness - that's a question...

Personally I would quietly sidle on to the marshes - but then I have been planning to visit a certain garden and Dungeness for quite some time.

Would also like to add a small comment of my own - My other half and I had a very interesting and hugely thought provoking visit to Dave Miller's darkroom this afternoon. Was given truckloads of advice and some great ideas. Saw some absolutely fabulous prints on the wall and enjoyed a great meal afterwards.

I regularly enter ink splatters into competitions and have had a reasonable amount of success both regionally and nationally. The prints I saw this afternoon were better than anything I have ever produced. Period...

Thanks - Dave.

Mark

Black Dog · Jul 22, 2007

I feel very lucky to have recieved a couple of prints from Dave Miller in the print exchange-can't see how they could be improved IMO.

canterbury 5-7 October 2007

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