Canon comparisons? F1 vs. T90 vs. AE-1 Program?

[FoidPoosening]

Hey everyone!

I started shooting a Canon AE-1 Program a year ago when my grandfather left it to me and have since outfitted it with a half-dozen or so FD lenses (love the FD lenses).

While I love the AE-1 Program and continue to plan on using it, someone I know referenced all three of these cameras recently and I haven't quite been able to find a clear link or thread explaining the differences and positives/negatives of each in a clear manner.

What are the strengths and weaknesses of the T90, F1, and AE-1 Program in relation to one another? As a side note, I was reading somewhere that there are different versions of the F1 with different features: what's the deal on that?

Finally, I love the AE-1 Program but the one thing I miss (in carryover from digital photography) is the ability to take long exposures at night. Would the T90 or F1 be better candidates for that use case?

Any info you all could supply would be really appreciated.

Thanks in advance APUG,

Foidpoosening

 

[gone]

Your camera has a 'B' function, so you can use that for long exposures. A cable release would be of some benefit w/ that feature.

 

[cuthbert]

I don't have the AE program, but I have a F-1 Old, a F-1 New (they are not the same camera) and a T90, plus a A-1.

A-1: the FD body I like least, it can't really be used in manual mode, the metering pattern often causes underexposures because it's buttom weighted.

F-1 old: strict manual camera, building quality at the top, even better than its archrival, the Nikon F2. Complete system camera, extra-smooth action, mine is permanently mated to a FD 55mm f1.2 and the combination is in the 1.4 kg range...the weight and the lack of aperture and shutter speed indication in the viewfinder are the only drawback.

Here there's a pic of my F-1 "exploded":

F-1N: I have two of them, one with standard prism and one with AE...slightly smaller than the predecessor, even more rugged, semi-mechanical shutter (for AE operation and slow speed it requires batteried), the interchangeble screens also change the METERING PATTERN. With the motordrive it become shutter priority, probably the best camera ever for me on pair with the Pentax LX, a little less sophisticated than the old model but more flexible.

T90: the electronic camera that changed the rules of the game, light years better than the A-1, too many buttons for me! It does almost all the modern DSLRs full frame do besides autofocus, completely dependant from batteries, not ruggely built as a F-1 or the A-1. Besides that it requires to read a 140 pages manual plus various 300 pages books dedicated to her I am worried about its long term reliability because the spare parts are not available anymore and if it breaks it's most likely gone.

So the first question is what you want? A completely manual camera? A program camera? Shutter or aperture priority?

 

[cdholden]

Don't forget the FTb. While not an F-1 or F-1n, not far from it either. I'd take an FTb over an AE-1, A-1 or T70. It's a good backup when your T90 gives out, but doesn't have all the accessories of the "system" cameras.

 

[AgX]

A good source of information an Canon A and T cameras (though no comparison) can be found at Mir Photography.

One major reason for me to buy a T-90 next to other Canon FD cameras was its metering system. Which largely resembles that of the Gossen Profisix.
Indeed it is a camera where one has to read the manual (though even more simple Canon cameras have some points where one definitely needs reading of the manual not to be badly surprised). And indeed, the complexity of the T-90 is the most I can bear.

 

[cuthbert]

Don't forget the FTb. While not an F-1 or F-1n, not far from it either. I'd take an FTb over an AE-1, A-1 or T70. It's a good backup when your T90 gives out, but doesn't have all the accessories of the "system" cameras.

Of course I also have a FTB, the so called FTb"n", or second series, 1975, with the original user's manual with the name of the original owner:

It's an excellent and very common camera, built as well as the original F-1, it resembles its smaller sister: slightly lighter, very smooth with good mirror damping, it doesn't have the titanium curtains shutter of the F-1 and it's removable finder and screens, it came just with the A screen so no split screen and that's its main limit but for the rest it's a very capable camera.

A good source of information an Canon A and T cameras (though no comparison) can be found at Mir Photography.

One major reason for me to buy a T-90 next to other Canon FD cameras was its metering system. Which largely resembles that of the Gossen Profisix.
Indeed it is a camera where one has to read the manual (though even more simple Canon cameras have some points where one definitely needs reading of the manual not to be badly surprised). And indeed, the complexity of the T-90 is the most I can bear.

The "evolution" of the Canon camera:

FTb manual: 49 pages
F-1 manual: 51 pages
F-1N manual: 83 pages
T90 manual: 126 pages!

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Careful - terminology is important with "F-1's".

There's the Canon F-1 introduced in 1971, all manual. There was an upgrade in 1976, called the F-1n, with improvements to the film wind lever, ASA range, viewfinder screens, and other small things.

Then in 1981 there's the New F-1 (not F-1n), which was modular so that if you wanted aperture priority, them you added the AE finder; if you wanted shutter priority, you added the power winder.

Canon itself makes this "New F-1" / "F-1n" distinction, as does the excellent MIR site, and Wikipedia.

 

[Dennis S]

There is a group @ Yahoo:https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/CanonFD/conversations/messages for any questions or links to FD cameras. There is also a group here that is helpful with knowledgeable people to help with concerns about FD camera and lenses. Yes the FD/FL lenses are terrific (15 ish) and are very stable.

 

[FoidPoosening]

Your camera has a 'B' function, so you can use that for long exposures. A cable release would be of some benefit w/ that feature.

This I completely understand. But how do I know if the effect I'm trying to achieve or proper exposure is 5 seconds, 6 seconds, 10 seconds, less, more? That's what I mean on that front.

Careful - terminology is important with "F-1's".

There's the Canon F-1 introduced in 1971, all manual. There was an upgrade in 1976, called the F-1n, with improvements to the film wind lever, ASA range, viewfinder screens, and other small things.

Then in 1981 there's the New F-1 (not F-1n), which was modular so that if you wanted aperture priority, them you added the AE finder; if you wanted shutter priority, you added the power winder.

Canon itself makes this "New F-1" / "F-1n" distinction, as does the excellent MIR site, and Wikipedia.

This is really useful info. The names are really close so understanding that and the subsequent material differences in each camera is awesome to know now!

Also, it sounds like an F1-N w/ AE and motordrive would be the best of both worlds for me! The AE-1 has all the sentimental value to me though.

 

[FoidPoosening]

So the first question is what you want? A completely manual camera? A program camera? Shutter or aperture priority?

Well I already have the AE-1 Program, but I would love to have a second FD shooter.

I'd love a film camera that has the option for auto exposure (in case I'm shooting pictures at a family event or something and don't want to worry about it) but being able to use it fully manual with or without a battery is appealing to me. As for shutter or aperture priority I'm not too picky.

From this thread so far, it sounds like an F1-N w/ AE and motordrive would be the best of both worlds for me! The AE-1 has all the sentimental value to me though.

*Whoops, sorry for double post by mistake* :O

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Also, it sounds like an F1-N w/ AE and motordrive would be the best of both worlds for me! The AE-1 has all the sentimental value to me though.

If you're looking for aperture priority, shutter priority, and manual, then you want the New F-1 with AE prism plus motordrive - not the F-1n.

 

[tokam]

If you're looking for aperture priority, shutter priority, and manual, then you want the New F-1 with AE prism plus motordrive - not the F-1n.

Depending on your lens choice this could be quite a heavy rig to tote around everyday.

I have a New F1, standard prism and when I mount an FD 35-105mm f3.5 its all comes to 1.5Kg. The full motor drive with grip and batteries will probably come to around 700g, (you can look it up at MIR), so my rig would come to 2.2Kg. Bigger lenses, more weight.

I am on the lookout for the winder for the New F1 as I don't need the full speed of the motor drive but I would like to have the shutter priority auto exposure which is not available without a winder or motor drive.

This all lead me to buying a T90 new in 1987. It also has 3 metering patterns built in which require change of screen in the New F1. Bought the New F1 about 3 years ago used as it's new price would have been out of the question for me in 1987. I love 'em both.

P.S. Get the 300TL flash for the T90 and you have very accurate and easy TTL flash. This was the first and only FD body to offer TTL flash. Perfect fill flash for daylight pics. Sorry if this makes your decision harder.

 

[zanxion72]

I think that this would be more of reliability that weight comparisons when it comes to old cameras.
From all these I would go for the F1 (Old). Purely mechanical and lasts for a lifetime with excellent performance. If it comes to use later cameras with electronics I would not think much of the AE-1 and definitely not of the T90. Once they start to fail that's it, they are done. If it is to use the amenities of the T90 one could go for a later higher spec film camera for about the same price that would offer me lots of features and higher reliability due to younger and better electronics.
For me it is as if there is a range of cameras that does not fit in any more. For example, I have also Nikon cameras.If I feel like going out with an all mechanical camera, I grab my FM2. Else I grab my F100 and go as it is incomparably better, feature rich and reliable than my FE2.

 

[AgX]

As with all old cameras one likes and maybe even made the center of a whole system it is good to have another body as reserve and even better a third for spares.

 

[cuthbert]

If you're looking for aperture priority, shutter priority, and manual, then you want the New F-1 with AE prism plus motordrive - not the F-1n.

He correctly wrote F-1N (capital letter), not F-1n.

Well I already have the AE-1 Program, but I would love to have a second FD shooter.

I'd love a film camera that has the option for auto exposure (in case I'm shooting pictures at a family event or something and don't want to worry about it) but being able to use it fully manual with or without a battery is appealing to me. As for shutter or aperture priority I'm not too picky.

From this thread so far, it sounds like an F1-N w/ AE and motordrive would be the best of both worlds for me! The AE-1 has all the sentimental value to me though.

*Whoops, sorry for double post by mistake* :O

Yes if the AE-1 has a sentimental value don't get rid of it, memories are priceless.

As another user mentioned, unfortunately ALL these cameras are heavy, but a F-1N in full metal armour is a sort of Gundam that might work well with a tripod but overkill for street photography, if you REALLY need shutter priority in a small package the T90 is a better choice.

Without motordrive or winder the F-1N is still a big camera but can be used everyday with a light lensl, the FDn 35-105 f3.5-4.5 that you see in my pics is a lightweight zoom originally thought for the T series.

 

[trythis]

Has the EF body been mentioned? I owned one, its nice but heavy. Works without a battery for fast speeds df 1/30 or less. Its hard to find info about it because the canon ef lens system overwhelms search results.

I found all the canon F bodies to be too heavy, but i do like the way Fd glass looks. I keep an A-1 for sentimental reasons and love the ergonomics of holding it (not the functions, just grip and weight) Its shutter drags every 10 shots or so, and I leave it on the shelf and shoot with other things.

Typos made on a tiny phone...

 

[FoidPoosening]

I think that this would be more of reliability that weight comparisons when it comes to old cameras.
From all these I would go for the F1 (Old). Purely mechanical and lasts for a lifetime with excellent performance. If it comes to use later cameras with electronics I would not think much of the AE-1 and definitely not of the T90. Once they start to fail that's it, they are done. If it is to use the amenities of the T90 one could go for a later higher spec film camera for about the same price that would offer me lots of features and higher reliability due to younger and better electronics.
For me it is as if there is a range of cameras that does not fit in any more. For example, I have also Nikon cameras.If I feel like going out with an all mechanical camera, I grab my FM2. Else I grab my F100 and go as it is incomparably better, feature rich and reliable than my FE2.

Once they fail, that's it? I've heard that repeatedly for the T90 but I thought the AE1 was one of the most common film cameras and many people still repair them? Also, while I'd love to grab one of two advanced Nikon film cameras it's out of the questions for two reasons. First, I already have a beautiful set of FD lenses and want to keep using them. Second, it's just not in the budget.

He correctly wrote F-1N (capital letter), not F-1n.

Yes if the AE-1 has a sentimental value don't get rid of it, memories are priceless.

As another user mentioned, unfortunately ALL these cameras are heavy, but a F-1N in full metal armour is a sort of Gundam that might work well with a tripod but overkill for street photography, if you REALLY need shutter priority in a small package the T90 is a better choice.

Without motordrive or winder the F-1N is still a big camera but can be used everyday with a light lensl, the FDn 35-105 f3.5-4.5 that you see in my pics is a lightweight zoom originally thought for the T series.

F-1N with AE it is then. I'm okay with heavy as long as that detriment is offset by something, and in this case it sounds like reliability is the gain.

Has the EF body been mentioned? I owned one, its nice but heavy. Works without a battery for fast speeds df 1/30 or less. Its hard to find info about it because the canon ef lens system overwhelms search results.

I found all the canon F bodies to be too heavy, but i do like the way Fd glass looks. I keep an A-1 for sentimental reasons and love the ergonomics of holding it (not the functions, just grip and weight) Its shutter drags every 10 shots or so, and I leave it on the shelf and shoot with other things.

I absolutely love the FD lenses. Build quality is top, glass is amazing and price is the true sweetener. A new Canon EF tilt shift lens is $1,400-$2,200. I picked up my Canon FD 35mm 2.8 SSC sub $300. Done deal.

Here's a follow up question though. I understand that the F-1N that I now want needs the AE prism. Fine. However, what are the differences between the motor drive and the winder?

Thanks so far everyone!

 

[trythis]

Just to clarify, the EF body is an FD mount body and not an autofocus EF system camera...confusing isnt it?

It' like a fixed prism F1 N in appearance but I havent studied or used an F1.

Typos made on a tiny phone...

 

[FoidPoosening]

Just to clarify, the EF body is an FD mount body and not an autofocus EF system camera...confusing isnt it?

Very confusing. How on earth does one find said camera body with all the EF digital search results? Ouch haha.

 

[AgX]

However, what are the differences between the motor drive and the winder?

A winder is basically a substitute for a transport lever. One will gain about 1-2 frames per second.

A motor drive is designed for for higher frame rates.

Winders likely are switched for single frame transport and motor drives instead for continuos transport, though that may vary.


With the T-90 and its incorporated motors one even can chose betweeen both characteristics ("single", "continous") and the respective motor sounds.

 

[FoidPoosening]

A winder is basically a substitute for a transport lever. One will gain about 1-2 frames per second.

A motor drive is designed for for higher frame rates.

Winders likely are switched for single frame transport and motor drives instead for continuos transport, though that may vary.


With the T-90 and its incorporated motors one even can chose betweeen both characteristics ("single", "continous") and the respective motor sounds.

Ah okay. I understand now. I have the A2 winder on my AE-1 Program and it has the same single / continuous settings.

And I asked because it sounds like having the winder vs. motor drive adds features to the F-1N aside from just the frame rates?

 

[AgX]

The are indeed added features:

-) second release button position

-) electrical release contact


with the motor drive also:

-) motorized film rewind


But best look this all up at the MIR site or respective manuals...
(I forgot to say that MIR not only covers A and T models bot also the F models.)

 

[FoidPoosening]

The are indeed added features:

-) second release button position

-) electrical release contact


with the motor drive also:

-) motorized film rewind


But best look this all up at the MIR site or respective manuals...
(I forgot to say that MIR not only covers A and T models bot also the F models.)

Perfect! Thank you so much. I will definitely be looking through those very soon.

 

[flavio81]

What are the strengths and weaknesses of the T90, F1, and AE-1 Program in relation to one another? As a side note, I was reading somewhere that there are different versions of the F1 with different features: what's the deal on that?

The comparison is not so fair because the F-1 is a professional camera while the others are not. The AE-1P was an amateur camera and the T90 was an "almost pro" camera.

Three versions of the F-1

** "F-1" or "F-1 original" or "F-1 old"; that's the 1971 model, a great camera with better build quality than the competing Nikon F2. (I own both). A completely mechanical camera. However I like the Nikon F2 slightly more.

** "F-1n" or "F-1 improved model" or whatever; that's a circa-1976 small improvement of the original F-1. Almost the same camera.

** "New F-1" or "F-1N" or "best camera in the world" is a 1981 model, a completely new camera, which retains the ergonomics of the previous camera, so they look similar from a long distance. A camera with better build quality and (in my opinon) overall nicer operation than the competing Nikon F3 (I had both, sold the Nikon F3 and never looked back.) An hybrid mechanical/electronic camera which, if batteries run out, can be used with the following shutter speeds: B, 1/90, 1/125, 1/250, 1/500, 1/1000, and 1/2000. Plus a lot of nice features and outstanding build quality.

now the other ones

** T90: A very coveted Canon camera, some say the "best" Canon camera for FD lenses. Basically an advanced camera which today (2015) is similar to your modern camera (like a Canon 5D) in terms of operations. BUT it has the multi-spot metering that very few few cameras of any brand have. For some this is a must, a big deal. Personally I can achieve the same by installing a "spot metering" focusing screen in my F-1N and watching where the metering meedle moves when looking at the different parts of the scene.

** T70: An ugly but very good do-it-all camera.

** AE-1P, an evolution of the Canon AE-1, with a much better focusing screen, remarkably good. And Program mode.

I think we have to include the following models:

** Canon EF: Coveted but not so rare nor expensive. Hybrid shutter which allows speeds from 1/2 to 1/1000 without battery. Shutter-priority automation. Well built. Heavy.

** Canon FTb, FT, TX, FX and similar: Very good line of mechanical cameras from Canon which are workhorses and much loved.

 

[flavio81]

I absolutely love the FD lenses. Build quality is top, glass is amazing and price is the true sweetener.

Agree (see my signature)!

Sometimes the Canon equivalent is better, sometimes the Nikkor equivalent is better. I would say that in telephoto lenses and Zoom lenses, usually Canon lenses (of that era, 1970-1985) are better than the contemporary Nikkors.

General differences between Canon and Nikkor lenses of those eras (1970-1981)? I'd say that in general the Canon lenses are designed for better (smooth) bokeh and low distortion (in zooms and wideangles), where the Nikon lens designers would place less priority in those factors, to the benefit of other factors such as resolution and wide-open performance. Also, Canon FD lenses have uniformly high contrast (this was a priority for Canon as well) and theorically identical color rendition (this was a requirement as well.)

While Nikkor K and AI lenses, i'd say are generally a bit better built than Canon FD lenses, they feel nicer in the hands. However the New FD lenses, despite plastic-looking, are durable due to the use of teflon coatings in the helicals.

Now, as a concluding remark, both brands (Canon and Nikon) make excellent lenses and the limiting factor is really the photographer, not the brand.