Canon comparisons? F1 vs. T90 vs. AE-1 Program?

[cuthbert]

The trapped-needle approach was superseded by an electronic approach.
Long before the New F-1 came out.

Sure? As far as I know the F-1N is the only camera with shutter priority that has mechanical shutter speeds, so battery independent..at least above 1/90s.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Sure? As far as I know the F-1N is the only camera with shutter priority that has mechanical shutter speeds, so battery independent..at least above 1/90s.

Also the EF, for speeds 1 sec and faster.

 

[AgX]

Sure? As far as I know the F-1N is the only camera with shutter priority that has mechanical shutter speeds, so battery independent..at least above 1/90s.

.
Even with a camera with mechanically controlled shutter times, the aperture still can be electronically controlled

 

[flavio81]

His complaint is that shutter priority is artificially locked out. Think about it: there's nothing inherent in the film winding process that provides a shutter priority function - Canon disabled what was already there until the drive was added (*). You've already got a shutter speed dial, so what more should be needed for that functionality?

(*) Maybe that's too strong - but Canon clearly chose to imbed the shutter priority functionality within an external film transport device.

Surely Ken Rockwell did not research the F-1N in depth before claiming the F-1N having shutter priority "locked out" (in the sense of being possible to do without accesories but having this possibility artificially locked.)
Typical Ken Rockwell... (I like his website despite this.)

Here is a quick explanation:

The camera needs a mechanism to set the diaphragm to the AE-metered value after the shutter button is pressed. This mechanism had no possibility of fitting inside the F-1N body, thus it was moved to the winder, because the logical use case for shutter priority was for sports shooters, which usually do require the motor anyways.

The old F-1 also uses an external accesory for shutter priority AE. And the F2 uses a monstrosity to achieve the same. The F3 has no provision for such AE.

 

[flavio81]

PS: Neither F-1 cameras use the trapped needle approach. The EF does. The EF has arguably the best trapped needle mechanism on a SLR.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

This is good information, flavio81. Thanks!

Although all this New F-1 talk is causing my Gear Acquisition Syndrome to twitch...

 

[FoidPoosening]

This is good information, flavio81. Thanks!

Although all this New F-1 talk is causing my Gear Acquisition Syndrome to twitch...

Haha you and me both.

 

[EdColorado]

Surely Ken Rockwell did not research the F-1N in depth before claiming the F-1N having shutter priority "locked out" (in the sense of being possible to do without accesories but having this possibility artificially locked.)
Typical Ken Rockwell... (I like his website despite this.)

Here is a quick explanation:

The camera needs a mechanism to set the diaphragm to the AE-metered value after the shutter button is pressed. This mechanism had no possibility of fitting inside the F-1N body, thus it was moved to the winder, because the logical use case for shutter priority was for sports shooters, which usually do require the motor anyways.

The old F-1 also uses an external accessory for shutter priority AE. And the F2 uses a monstrosity to achieve the same. The F3 has no provision for such AE.

Yeah, looking around the web I see that there is a AE coupler on the underside of the New F1 body, that looks like it couples with the winder the same as the film advance would. So there are three couplings, the film wind, one marked rewind (does the New F1 have a power rewind function?), and the AE coupler. So I'm guessing this allows a motor in the winder to be used to mechanically adjust the lens aperture. This doesn't look like something I would term as locking out the shutter priority function. If it works like it seems it does, the motor is very much an integral part of the function and not something that's going to be bypassed, or that was put there to make the owner buy more hardware.

 

[AgX]

The camera needs a mechanism to set the diaphragm to the AE-metered value after the shutter button is pressed. This mechanism had no possibility of fitting inside the F-1N Body,...

Is that true?
The only reason why the mechanism of the A-Family has not been taken over that comes to my mind would be speed:

The highest speed that mechanism is engaged in a A-camera (A-1 and AE-P) would be 5 resp. 4 frames per second.
BUT with the NEW F-1 the highest frame rate is 5 frames per second too.

 

[flavio81]

Is that true?
The only reason why the mechanism of the A-Family has not been taken over that comes to my mind would be speed:

The highest speed that mechanism is engaged in a A-camera (A-1 and AE-P) would be 5 resp. 4 frames per second.
BUT with the NEW F-1 the highest frame rate is 5 frames per second too.

AgX,

The A-series keep the lens' aperture position lever in the wide open position. When triggering the camera, the lever falls down (because of spring action) and then it is stopped by the AE mechanism as soon as the lever's position corresponds to the wanted aperture value.

This is why, when taking the lens off the "A" position, and manually moving the aperture ring, you cannot afterwards return to AE mode without having to perform a special "reset" procedure. This would not be acceptable in a professional camera.

The F-1N apparently uses a different mechanism and thus it has no such problem.

 

[benjiboy]

Yeah, looking around the web I see that there is a AE coupler on the underside of the New F1 body, that looks like it couples with the winder the same as the film advance would. So there are three couplings, the film wind, one marked rewind (does the New F1 have a power rewind function?), and the AE coupler. So I'm guessing this allows a motor in the winder to be used to mechanically adjust the lens aperture. This doesn't look like something I would term as locking out the shutter priority function. If it works like it seems it does, the motor is very much an integral part of the function and not something that's going to be bypassed, or that was put there to make the owner buy more hardware.

The New F1 indeed has a full power rewind function Ed, but only with the Motor drive FN not with the Power winder FN.

 

[cuthbert]

AgX,

The A-series keep the lens' aperture position lever in the wide open position. When triggering the camera, the lever falls down (because of spring action) and then it is stopped by the AE mechanism as soon as the lever's position corresponds to the wanted aperture value.

This is why, when taking the lens off the "A" position, and manually moving the aperture ring, you cannot afterwards return to AE mode without having to perform a special "reset" procedure. This would not be acceptable in a professional camera.

The F-1N apparently uses a different mechanism and thus it has no such problem.

Interesting info from you all, it appears the the F-1N is one of most loved cameras around.


Perhaps you guys are already familiar with this book, however I place this link here:

http://satnam.ca/cameras/Canonf1worldbook1.pdf

 

[AgX]

Flavio,

I never had any F-1 in hand (hard to believe but true). Your comment on that aperture control lever was very interesting!

(That "reset" operation is one of the issues that even with a camera seemingly as simple as the A-models one actually has to read the Manual as I hinted at.)

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Perhaps you guys are already familiar with this book, however I place this link here:

http://satnam.ca/cameras/Canonf1worldbook1.pdf

Very nice, technical, detailed brochure. Thank you.

 

[cuthbert]

Very nice, technical, detailed brochure. Thank you.

It's not a brochure, it's a real hardcover book that was published in 1981 to advertise the new F-1, I bought a copy on ebay with dust cover and the picture inside are amazing, also because for each one the pro who took it explains why he uses that lens, at what aperture, shutter, what he wanted to achieve etc...

IMO it explains well because the F-1N was better than the F3, Pentax had done something similar for the LX but not so detailed.

 

[flavio81]

Interesting info from you all, it appears the the F-1N is one of most loved cameras around.


Perhaps you guys are already familiar with this book, however I place this link here:

http://satnam.ca/cameras/Canonf1worldbook1.pdf

Wow, thanks!!