Canon comparisons? F1 vs. T90 vs. AE-1 Program?

[AgX]

T70: An ugly but very good do-it-all camera.

But it holds better than one would think by the look.
It is kind of motorized successor of the AE-1P. But surprisingly it lacks the DOF-preview feature!

 

[EdColorado]

Well hell, it must be kick the T90 week...

Lot of good comments about the other models. I have the F1n and have used the AE1 quite a bit. I own a couple A1s, and a FTBn. All wonderful cameras in their own way. My favorite of those is probably the F1n, I love its classic feel and function, and its build quality.

None of these are what I would call the best overall though. I also have a couple of very heavily used (by me) T90s. The T90 is a do it all, tough as can be pro level camera (whatever the heck that means). I say its a pro level camera cause a lot of pros used em, including myself during the short time I could call my self a "pro". I used them for landscapes, portraiture, weddings, and the camera busting environment of the race track. Tough life out there banging against another body (T90) all day, slapping against concrete barriers, baking in the sun and getting cooled down in the rain (washes off all the dirt too). Both T90s still look rather good and shoot great. They work in any mode you want, aperture or shutter priority, full manual, what is it, 6 program modes? Multiple metering patterns including the multi spot function (I used it a couple times...). The thing can even be told to watch your butt and take care of you if your in a priority mode and not paying attention to the changing lighting. One of, if not the best cameras ever made, it will allow you to shoot in whatever way works for the day at hand. Its all there, including a bunch of stuff you may never need...until one day when it just might save your shoot.

Oh yeah, killer flash metering with one or more 300TL flash units too. Plus, while it can still be repaired (but like all these cameras you'll be using used parts), they are so cheap you might as well just grab a couple.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

** Canon EF: Coveted but not so rare nor expensive. Hybrid shutter which allows speeds from 1/2 to 1/1000 without battery. Shutter-priority automation. Well built. Heavy.

Nice summary overall.

The EF is magnificent. It is solid and has a wonderfully bright viewfinder with display of shutter speeds and apertures. Looks great with old style FD lenses and comes only in black.

Oddly, the EF has relatively very little written about it on the internet. MIR doesn't even mention it.

 

[cuthbert]

Ah okay. I understand now. I have the A2 winder on my AE-1 Program and it has the same single / continuous settings.

And I asked because it sounds like having the winder vs. motor drive adds features to the F-1N aside from just the frame rates?

Even if it sounds incredible, in order to have shutter priority (you set the shutter speed and the lens of A, and the camera automatically chooses the aperture of the lens) you need to have the winder or the motordrive attached... that's the greatest limitation of the F-1N IMO, shutter priority is useful especially if you use long lenses and you need to have an heavy accessory for that, if you die to use shutter priority perhaps a T90 would be a better choice even if with that camera you can't shoot manually like with a Fujica AX5 or a Pentax Super Program.

The motordrive of the F-1N is a mighty beast, it takes 12 AA batteries and weights a ton! It was meant to be used for professional sport or nature photographers with a tripod and a long lens, here you can see the difference in specs between the motordrive and the winder:

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/canonf1n/motordrives/index.htm

Here you can read Rockwell's review where he slams the F-1 because it needs the winder to give shutter priority (it doesn't matter than his precious F3 doesn't offer this feature at all):

http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/fd/winder-fn.htm

This is a selfie with my first F1N, the motordrive and my 50mm f1.2..it was tough to keep the camera vertical:

 

[wiltw]

One thing to keep in mind, that has not been mentioned or considered, is the positioning of the various cameras being considered...


The F-1 was Canon's first truly professional-grade SLR system produced by Canon from 1971 until 1976.

The newer Canon A series replaced the F series,

• AE-1 launched in 1976 is decidedly positioned as an ENTRY LEVEL CONSUMER CAMERA (for amateurs), vs. the professionally oriented F1 camera which Canon offered.
• The top of line Canon A1, manufactured as a higher tech follow-on to the AE-1 from 1978 to 1985, is the high technology standard bearer, with A-1 as the top-of-the-line A-series camera, and is more durable than the AE-1.

Canon's newest T series, replacing the A series, is Canon's final series of manual focus 35 mm single lens reflex cameras, and the series attempted to update the manual focus SLR concept because in the early 1980s, the FD SLR market share was declining with the increased popularity of the autofocus EOS bodies; the T series introduced much more automation to the FD mount SLR camera.

• The bottom-of-line T50 was introduced in 1983
• while the top-of-line T90, was released in 1986

 

[AgX]

Actually the A-series with its selfsustained autofocus lens, and the T-series with the T-80 autofocus kit were FD-predessors of the EOS autofocus system.

 

[flavio81]

But it holds better than one would think by the look.
It is kind of motorized successor of the AE-1P. But surprisingly it lacks the DOF-preview feature!

Are you sure? I thought the DOF button is the one that is located just in the same place as the DOF button in the typical Nikon camera. I *think* i remember pressing such button in a T70 and achieving stop down !

 

[flavio81]

Nice summary overall.

The EF is magnificent. It is solid and has a wonderfully bright viewfinder with display of shutter speeds and apertures. Looks great with old style FD lenses and comes only in black.

Oddly, the EF has relatively very little written about it on the internet. MIR doesn't even mention it.

There is info on the EF on the internet, if you look for it. It has been glorified and praised a lot.

But I find it overrated when comparing it to other Canon cameras. I sold my Canon EF, and mine was in very good shape. And this after looking patiently for a 2ndhand, good shape Canon EF ** for three years!!**
I have written more comprehensively about this, but the reasons, for me, were:

- Can't turn off the meter without locking the shutter button
- You forget to turn off the meter -> then the battery drains in a matter of days
- Do you want to keep the camera always ready, that is, unlocked? -> then the meter stays on -> battery consumption increased
- If you are holding the camera, the wind lever must stick out. This is sometimes uncomfortable.
- Screen/viewfinder was too dim for my standards. A cheaper AE-1 has a brighter viewfinder.
- The square vertical shutter is noticeably rougher (less smooth, has more vibrations) than the horizontal shutter on the A-series, FT/FTb/FX/TX and F-1 series.
- It's nice to be able to see both aperture and shutter speed in the viewfinder, but in the way this is implemented, it becomes difficult to see them in low light. In this regard the A-1 and F-1N viewfinders are the best.

In short, the EF would have been my perfect camera if...

- it had an horizontal shutter
- separate shutter button lock from meter on/off button
- better visualization of aperture/speed

I find the A-1 and the F-1N nicer cameras. The A-1 is not as bad as some say. And it's not the ultimate Canon, as other say.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

On a New F-1, the valid combinations seem to be:

Manual mode: choose aperture, choose shutter speed
Aperture priority: choose aperture, shutter set to A
Shutter priority: aperture set to A, choose shutter speed

Just out of curiosity: if you have a New F-1 with AE prism and motor drive, what happens if you select A on the lens and A on the shutter speed dial?

On a Fuji X-Pro1, that gives you full auto mode



On an AE-1P, the valid combinations seem to be:

Manual mode: choose aperture, choose shutter speed
Shutter priority: aperture set to A, choose shutter speed
Program mode: aperture set to A, shutter set to PROGRAM

Similarly, an unmentioned combination for the AE-1P is having the shutter speed dial set to PROGRAM, but the lens set to an aperture instead of A.

 

[AgX]

I thought the DOF button [of the T-70] is the one that is located just in the same place as the DOF button in the typical Nikon camera. I *think* i remember pressing such button in a T70 and achieving stop down !

You must be betrayed by your memory (experienced such myself...) , as that button at the T-70 just is a meter switch.

 

[FoidPoosening]

Thanks for all the info guys! So just to clarify: an F-1N with AE and winder would be capable of shutter or aperture priority? So many variables with the add ons here I'm not sure how they explained it to customers in the 80s lol.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Thanks for all the info guys! So just to clarify: an F-1N with AE and winder would be capable of shutter or aperture priority? So many variables with the add ons here I'm not sure how they explained it to customers in the 80s lol.

Yep. The "F-1N" plus AE prism and winder will give you aperture and shutter priority capability, plus manual of course.

In the '80's, I think Canon told pros to "buy it all"

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Here you can read Rockwell's review where he slams the F-1 because it needs the winder to give shutter priority (it doesn't matter than his precious F3 doesn't offer this feature at all):

http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/fd/winder-fn.htm

His complaint is that shutter priority is artificially locked out. Think about it: there's nothing inherent in the film winding process that provides a shutter priority function - Canon disabled what was already there until the drive was added (*). You've already got a shutter speed dial, so what more should be needed for that functionality?

(*) Maybe that's too strong - but Canon clearly chose to imbed the shutter priority functionality within an external film transport device.

 

[AgX]

Sorry for overlooking that shutter-priority /winder/motor-drive issue.

Just because it seems so weird I should have remembered it...

 

[cuthbert]

Actually the A-series with its selfsustained autofocus lens, and the T-series with the T-80 autofocus kit were FD-predessors of the EOS autofocus system.

The T-80 autofocus system is not similar to the EOS, it's more alike the self sustained systems available before the introduction of the Minolta 7000: other examples of this technology are the Pentax ME-F and the Chinon CE-5.

FD autofocus lenses also work on the F-1 and the other FD cameras.

Just out of curiosity: if you have a New F-1 with AE prism and motor drive, what happens if you select A on the lens and A on the shutter speed dial?

On a Fuji X-Pro1, that gives you full auto mode

On the F-1 it automatically selects the smaller aperture available (f22, for instance) and calculates the the relative (usually long) shutter time.

On the Fujica AX-5 on the other side it gives full auto mode, so it appears Fuji hasn't changed their controls in the last 35 years!

His complaint is that shutter priority is artificially locked out. Think about it: there's nothing inherent in the film winding process that provides a shutter priority function - Canon disabled what was already there until the drive was added (*). You've already got a shutter speed dial, so what more should be needed for that functionality?

(*) Maybe that's too strong - but Canon clearly chose to imbed the shutter priority functionality within an external film transport device.

I don't know if this is true, if this is the case I think some smart repairer should have found the way to "fool" the camera making it think the motordrive is attached, if this is possible I would like to know how because the fact that you need the motordrive/winder is IMO the greatest flaw of the NEW F-1 (other people complain about the lack of mirror lock up but I would consider shutter priority a more useful feature).

Another minor annoyance is that the AE prism unlike the normal one doesn't have internal illumination for the horizontal display (actually in the F-1 when you select aperture priority the display actually changes, in manual mode you have the aperture and shutter speed in a vertical display, in aperture priority that disappears and it's replaced by a horizontal one with a needle) but besides that it's a powerful camera.

 

[AgX]

The T-80 autofocus system is not similar to the EOS.

I did not mean to say that but to indicate that there were intermediary AF steps on the old bodies.

FD autofocus lenses also work on the F-1 and the other FD cameras.

The T-80 lenses would not autofocus on other FD bodies, only that one earlier lens with selfsustained AF-system could be used on any FD-mount.

 

[AgX]

I think some smart repairer should have found the way to "fool" the [New F-1] making it think the motordrive is attached [to achieve shutter-priority AE].

Good idea.

 

[dynachrome]

There were Canon FTbN cameras sold with combination split image/microprism focusing screens. This was at the same time that Nikon sold the Nikkormat FTN K. Over time the combination screen became the standard one for most manual focus SLR cameras. Canon changed to such a screen when the E screen became the standard one in the F-1 cameras. Earlier F-1 models had the A ecreen - plain microprism - as the standard one. For me the interesting things about the AE-1 Program are the interchangeable focusing screens and the winders.

 

[FoidPoosening]

There were Canon FTbN cameras sold with combination split image/microprism focusing screens. This was at the same time that Nikon sold the Nikkormat FTN K. Over time the combination screen became the standard one for most manual focus SLR cameras. Canon changed to such a screen when the E screen became the standard one in the F-1 cameras. Earlier F-1 models had the A ecreen - plain microprism - as the standard one. For me the interesting things about the AE-1 Program are the interchangeable focusing screens and the winders.

Interesting in what way? Why? I'm curious haha.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

On the Fujica AX-5 on the other side it gives full auto mode, so it appears Fuji hasn't changed their controls in the last 35 years!

Didn't know about the old AX-5 - nice. Well, if it works, don't mess with it. Fuji's system of selecting Program, aperture priority, shutter priority, and manual modes is simple, intuitive, and elegant.


Re: needing the winder/drive for shutter priority:

I don't know if this is true, if this is the case I think some smart repairer should have found the way to "fool" the camera making it think the motordrive is attached ...

Yes. I thought about that and searched for it prior to my earlier post and found nothing. Someone made a remark that Canon's approach allowed them to avoid using a trapped-needle method, thereby decreasing wear and improving reliability. It seems that the issues in what Canon chose to do was more complex than I originally thought.

 

[EdColorado]

Didn't know about the old AX-5 - nice. Well, if it works, don't mess with it. Fuji's system of selecting Program, aperture priority, shutter priority, and manual modes is simple, intuitive, and elegant.


Re: needing the winder/drive for shutter priority:



Yes. I thought about that and searched for it prior to my earlier post and found nothing. Someone made a remark that Canon's approach allowed them to avoid using a trapped-needle method, thereby decreasing wear and improving reliability. It seems that the issues in what Canon chose to do was more complex than I originally thought.

But just what does the winder supply to allow shutter priority to work? Is it just the closing of an electrical connection? Is there actually some light meter related "smarts" in the winder? I've not yet acquired a F1N so haven't a way to look at how the camera and winder connect and interact.

 

[dynachrome]

"Interesting in what way? Why? I'm curious haha."

I prefer to have a plain matte or grid type focusing screen when doing macro work or using slower lenses. The AE-1 Program has user interchangeable screens. The more sophisticated A-1 has "factory interchangeable" screens. The AE-1, EF, FTb, FTbN, TLb, TX and all of the older FL bodies have non-interchangeable screens. The F-1 cameras do have interchangeable screens but are considerably heavier.

 

[AgX]

Re: needing the winder/drive for shutter priority:

Yes. I thought about that and searched for it prior to my earlier post and found nothing. Someone made a remark that Canon's approach allowed them to avoid using a trapped-needle method, thereby decreasing wear and improving reliability..

The trapped-needle approach was superseded by an electronic approach.
Long before the New F-1 came out.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

But just what does the winder supply to allow shutter priority to work? Is it just the closing of an electrical connection? Is there actually some light meter related "smarts" in the winder? I've not yet acquired a F1N so haven't a way to look at how the camera and winder connect and interact.

Thinking about this further, the winder / drive could have dedicated electronics which takes input from both the light meter and the shutter speed dial, makes an exposure calculation, and then sends a signal back to the body to control the aperture. In that scenario, you actually need the winder / drive with the dedicated exposure electronics - there would be no way to bypass using the winder / motor and fool the camera into performing shutter priority.

 

[MattKing]

Or additional battery power.