Cancer.Photo chemicals. Are they linked?

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Aggie

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Aggie - please.

There is no chromium in benzene rings, not does chromium form 6-atom rings. A benzene ring is a ring of six carbon atoms with a special type of bonds between them. No other element than carbon can form these bonds. There are other 6-atom carbon rings too which are not benzene, due to the lack of covalent bonds.



Let's count the charges: Potassium dichromate is K2Cr2O7. Each K is 1+, each O is 2-. That's 14- + 2+ = 12- . So each of the two Cr must be 6+ to balance the charges. Hexavalent = 6+!

I'm tempted to suggest you retake your college level chemistry...

Yep that is what I get for being over tired, and on migraine meds. You guys are right. I only thought quickly instead of grabbing my books and looking up. I didn't think past di vs. hex. I know better, but failed miserably.

Ok so in pentinence here is the Merck Index summation:

Human Toxicity: Internal a corrosive Poison. Industrial (rmember exposure level) may result in ulcerations of hands, destruction of mucous membranes and perforation of nasal septum. See E Browning, Toxicity of Industrial Metals (Appleton-Century Crofts, New York, 2nd ed., 1969) pp 119-131 See also Chromium.
Use: In tanning leather, dyeing, painting, decorating porcelain, printing, photolithography, pigment-prints, staining wood, pyrotechnics safety matches: for bleaching palm oil, wax nd sponges: waterproofing fabrics: as oxidizer manufacture of organic chemicals: in electric batteries: as depolarizer for dry cells. As corrosive inhibitor in preference to sodium dichromate where lower soly is advantageous. Pharmaceutic aid (oxidizing agent)

If you look at the list of uses, we come in contact with it in minimal amounts in various forms. The last on the list is interesting in that in what would be minute amounts it is used int he pharmacuetical industry, or in other words at some point we are putting it in our bodies. Again I want to stress know what you are reading. The industrial useage is a massive exposure. And don't do like I do and make stupid mistakes with chemistry.
 
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Aggie

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The ceiling airborne exposure limit for dichromates is someting like micrograms.

I hope you don't take medicines via a gelatin capsule. they use dichromates to manufacture them. It is also used in guess what? some topical ointments. It is the dosage you have to worry about, and the types of exposure. I found these things from the Merck Index, and my bio chem college text. No more just speaking from 10 year old knowledge (that was my last chem class 10 years ago). It's also one of the things we use to use in classes to make fake volcanos. a bit of strip magnesium on top of the orange dichromat crystals would react violently like a mini volcano.
 

Ole

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... which brings me to something I wanted to introduce a little while ago, but it slipped my mind:

Hexavalent Chromium can easily be "neutralised" in a darkroom environment: Mix it with a reducing agent, and you end up with a solution of trivalent chromium and a slightly less reducing reducing agent.

A good reducing agent would be spent developer. As an added bonus, that would also eliminate a little bit of the benzene rings that are common to all developing agents (except vitamin C). :smile:
 

Photo Engineer

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Ole;

The benzene rings would be there, but the ring moieties would be oxidized. For example, all hydroquinone would be a mixture of quinone sulfonates, and sulfite would be sulfate.

PE
 

Ole

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....


You're right, of course.

Yet another demonstration of why I did inorganic chemistry, and skipped lightly over all that "carbon" stuff! :smile:
 
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Photo Engineer

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I think that the point is that the average photographer does not know any chemistry and therefore has to come to someplace like APUG for answers. The thing is, this person must then rely on us to give good information, the best we know, and to avoid frightening them away from analog photography.

Much of what is taking place today in the sales of analog products and chemicals in general is taking place in the mistaken hope of banishing risk, when it remains in the form of pesticides and other chemicals in the environment. This includes analog photography.

In some ways, as pointed out above, the rules in the EU are stricter for effluents than in the US, but a recent article pointed out that in spite of those rules, effluent contained large amounts of chemicals. They were coming from medicines being put into sewage by patients taking these medicines, and having them decompose via various routes into a mess of organics that are unnatural to the environment. (It was in Science News but please don't expect me to dig it up)

The same is happening in the US of course, but in the case of the strict EU rules, it is rather more ironic to us in the US who observe this.

There is just no way to control contact with chemicals in either the US or the EU. They are everywhere, and most are not natural to any environment suitable for living things. What we have to do is be prudent in our use and disposal as photographers. Most common photographic chemicals are benign when handled properly. I stress that strongly. If they were not, you would see the engineers at Kodak, Fuji, Ilford and etc.. dropping like flies form all sorts of odd ailments.

PE
 

JBrunner

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Much of what is taking place today in the sales of analog products and chemicals in general is taking place in the mistaken hope of banishing risk,....


The enviromental consequences of millions of dead D cameras, and other rapidly obsolesced gadgets (computer junk, cell phones, etc.) hasn't reached the water table yet. What's in these things? You don't want to know. Go down in your darkroom, where it's safe.
 
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Kirk Keyes

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I think that the point is that the average photographer does not know any chemistry and therefore has to come to someplace like APUG for answers. The thing is, this person must then rely on us to give good information, the best we know, and to avoid frightening them away from analog photography.

This is the best thing I've read in this thread!

And please, peoples, look up your "facts" before posting things. It does no service to anyone when things get posted that are not only a little bit wrong, but completely and utterly wrong. (i.e. chromium in benzene...)

Someone may read that sort of thing and it sticks with them as a factoid, they don't make it back to read the correction, it sticks with them and then gets propagated out as a "fact" somewhere else.

We need to try to avoid that sort of situation.

By the way - hate when Dr Pepper gets slandered (antifreeze in Dr Pepper was mentioned above).

From http://www.drpepper.com/text/dpnutrition.aspx

Ingredients:

CARBONATED WATER, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, CARAMEL COLOR, PHOSPHORIC ACID, ARTIFICIAL AND NATURAL FLAVORS, SODIUM BENZOATE (PRESERVATIVE), CAFFEINE.

Note: In some markets, Dr Pepper is made with sugar instead of High Fructose Corn Syrup.

Now unless the "antifreeze" you refer to is included in "artificial and natural flavors", there is none in Dr Pepper.
 

JBrunner

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Ethylene glycol is antifreeze, Polyethylene glycol is a food additive. They are a bit different.
 

Jordan

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In some ways, as pointed out above, the rules in the EU are stricter for effluents than in the US, but a recent article pointed out that in spite of those rules, effluent contained large amounts of chemicals. They were coming from medicines being put into sewage by patients taking these medicines, and having them decompose via various routes into a mess of organics that are unnatural to the environment. (It was in Science News but please don't expect me to dig it up)

I also seem to remember reading about increased antibiotic resistance in pathogenic bacteria possibly being the result of antibiotics being urinated into the environment by millions of antibiotic-taking patients around the world. Similar stuff.

On the general topic of this thread: There is always risk when working with potentially hazardous substances. The key is to choose your materials and techniques so as to minimize risk. Chemistry is important, but only goes only so far in doing this -- toxicology plays an even bigger role (mechanisms of action, cumulative vs. acute exposure, methods of entry, etc.) As Paracelsus said, "The dose makes the poison".
 

Aggie

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By the way - hate when Dr Pepper gets slandered (antifreeze in Dr Pepper was mentioned above).

From http://www.drpepper.com/text/dpnutrition.aspx

Ingredients:

CARBONATED WATER, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, CARAMEL COLOR, PHOSPHORIC ACID, ARTIFICIAL AND NATURAL FLAVORS, SODIUM BENZOATE (PRESERVATIVE), CAFFEINE.

Note: In some markets, Dr Pepper is made with sugar instead of High Fructose Corn Syrup.

Now unless the "antifreeze" you refer to is included in "artificial and natural flavors", there is none in Dr Pepper.

Go back in time to before the mid 90's when Dr. Pepper was forced to eliminate the eythlene glycol from it's product in California. Many markets took their time in other states to follow through and also eliminate it. As recently as 2003 I read eythleen glycol as the preservative in Dr. Pepper in New Mexico. As far as I know NM is still in the USA. Print outs on a website are great for after the fact marketing. In fact somewhere in my garage in a box is an old unopened can of Dr. Pepper that has it listed as an ingredient. This is not a urban legend but facts, supported by the print on the side of the cans.
 

DBP

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Go back in time to before the mid 90's when Dr. Pepper was forced to eliminate the eythlene glycol from it's product in California. Many markets took their time in other states to follow through and also eliminate it. As recently as 2003 I read eythleen glycol as the preservative in Dr. Pepper in New Mexico. As far as I know NM is still in the USA. .
Well, there are those who question the legitimacy of the Treaty of Guadelupe-Hidalgo.
 
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nworth

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Most photographic chemicals have a low carcinogenic potential. Chromium VI (e.g. dichromate) is listed as a carcinogen, but not a particualarly potent one. Hydroquinone is also a potential carcinogen (and probably pyrogallol and pyrocatechin as well, since they are related), but the potential is very low. Check out the NIOSH (http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/homepage.html) and OSHA (http://www.osha.gov/) publications for definitive answers and practical tips.
 

avandesande

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That's poly-ethlene glycol, big difference. A little knowledge can be dangerous, no?

Go back in time to before the mid 90's when Dr. Pepper was forced to eliminate the eythlene glycol from it's product in California. Many markets took their time in other states to follow through and also eliminate it. As recently as 2003 I read eythleen glycol as the preservative in Dr. Pepper in New Mexico. As far as I know NM is still in the USA. Print outs on a website are great for after the fact marketing. In fact somewhere in my garage in a box is an old unopened can of Dr. Pepper that has it listed as an ingredient. This is not a urban legend but facts, supported by the print on the side of the cans.
 

Aggie

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I went out in to the mass of boxes in my garage, and found my can of old Dr. Pepper I have kept since this was first disclosed in a lecture at the University of Arizona Organic chem class in 94. I will bring it with me when I go to NM next summer for the APIS conf. It clearly reads that it contains not polyethylene glycol, but ethylene glycol. I will go by what I read on the label of the can in hand.
 

avandesande

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Aggie leave your can at home, I believe you! I suffer from CRS about things that happened yesterday, not to mention 10+ years ago. I wouldn't have questioned you except that I couldn't find any source to collaborate what you said, and it would seem reasonable that a person could confuse the two compounds.
Thank gd I don't drink soda...

I went out in to the mass of boxes in my garage, and found my can of old Dr. Pepper I have kept since this was first disclosed in a lecture at the University of Arizona Organic chem class in 94. I will bring it with me when I go to NM next summer for the APIS conf. It clearly reads that it contains not polyethylene glycol, but ethylene glycol. I will go by what I read on the label of the can in hand.
 

gainer

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Ethylene glycol has a sweet smell and taste that makes it vary attractive to children and dogs who cannot read poison warnings on labels. I don't know what the dangerous dose is for adults, but it's certainly much less for kids and pets. Cats won't touch the stuff.

It may be the sweetness that prompted Pepsi to use it instead of propylene glycol. It can't be in there in very large amounts. I lived to be 79 through the days when "Pepsi Cola hits the spot. 12 full ounces, that's a lot. Twice as much for a nickel too. Pepsi Cola is the drink for you." A nickel was hard for a kid to get then.
 

benjiboy

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I mix my own chemicals now. It just worries me, because as of the recent
reports, the rates of cancer are rising. Would you know if exposure to
photographic chemicals, from the raw chemicals to the pre-packed chemicals
that we use, could trigger, or contribute to the development of cancer- -any
kind of cancer?
If it were proven that exposure to photo chemistry increased your risk of getting cancer would you give it up ?
 
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JBrunner

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Gerald Koch

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As a matter of fact, dichromates are the most dangerous chemical around in a darkroom.
Ammonium dichromate is used in the classic volcano demonstration given to high school and college chemistry students. Last I looked I didn't see a lot of dead instructors or students.

But seriously, any chemical can be dangerous if used improperly. Anyone considering doing photographic processing should consider the risks. There is plenty of information on the web and chemical suppliers now usually include MSDS. Everyone should read them carefully.
 
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