Can i bring extremely expired paper (blackened) back into a not so expired paper (greyish)?

[Don_ih]

Kodak rc papers are definitely the worst for loss of contrast. Even if they don't show any age fog, it gets impossible to get decent black out of them. And then there's the mottling. The Kodak rc papers don't fog evenly.

 

[Ian Grant]

I came across an article in a BJP Almanac a couple of weeks ago about reviving heavily fogged paper. Essentially, it was bleached in a re-halogenating bleach, washed, then bathed in a bath to help increase sensitivity.I can't remember which year Almanac, if/when I find the article I'll scan it.

Ideally you'd need to use a Potassium Ferricyanide & Potassium Bromide bleach, wash well, then I'm fairly sure the sensitising bath was Sodium Sulphite, you could try a 1 or 2% solution for say 15 minutes then wash and dry. Quite easy and quick with RC paper.

Ian

 

[nmp]

I came across an article in a BJP Almanac a couple of weeks ago about reviving heavily fogged paper. Essentially, it was bleached in a re-halogenating bleach, washed, then bathed in a bath to help increase sensitivity.I can't remember which year Almanac, if/when I find the article I'll scan it.

Ideally you'd need to use a Potassium Ferricyanide & Potassium Bromide bleach, wash well, then I'm fairly sure the sensitising bath was Sodium Sulphite, you could try a 1 or 2% solution for say 15 minutes then wash and dry. Quite easy and quick with RC paper.

Ian

Nice to someone more knowledgeable than I corroborating my intuition, as in post #6 (minus the sensitizing bath part.)

:Niranjan.

 

[pentaxuser]

I came across an article in a BJP Almanac a couple of weeks ago about reviving heavily fogged paper. Essentially, it was bleached in a re-halogenating bleach, washed, then bathed in a bath to help increase sensitivity.I can't remember which year Almanac, if/when I find the article I'll scan it.

Ideally you'd need to use a Potassium Ferricyanide & Potassium Bromide bleach, wash well, then I'm fairly sure the sensitising bath was Sodium Sulphite, you could try a 1 or 2% solution for say 15 minutes then wash and dry. Quite easy and quick with RC paper.

Ian

That would certainly be interesting to see, Ian so thanks. Is this done done prior to exposure for printing? If so doesn't the time needed to do all of this mean that it is subject to exposure to safe-lighting for longer than may be safe, especially during the drying stage unless you have a hot-air drier. I have one of those( 3 close sides with racks and one open side) and it is very quick but when the heating element is on there is a red light inside which might light fog?

There just seems to be quite a lot of difficulties associated wit that process but there may be ways round it I'll need to wait until you find the article

pentaxuser

 

[eli griggs]

Thank you, Matt, for making more clear that distinction, between types.

For clarity, paper manufacturers use very tiny amounts of developer-like additives to fine tune speed and contrast behavior in papers, in order to ensure batch to batch consistency.
This is fundamentally different than the developer incorporated papers that are designed for rapid production using activator chemistry - none of which are still being manufactured.
Those activation papers are/were relatively short lived. The papers with trace additives usually last much longer than their "develop before" dates before their performance is significantly impacted.

 

[Ian Grant]

That would certainly be interesting to see, Ian so thanks. Is this done done prior to exposure for printing? If so doesn't the time needed to do all of this mean that it is subject to exposure to safe-lighting for longer than may be safe, especially during the drying stage unless you have a hot-air drier. I have one of those( 3 close sides with racks and one open side) and it is very quick but when the heating element is on there is a red light inside which might light fog?

There just seems to be quite a lot of difficulties associated wit that process but there may be ways round it I'll need to wait until you find the article

pentaxuser

It might be possible to treat the paper dry it and keep it in a box to use later after all the article was written long before RC papers, I need to find the article, but it's one of about 35 BJP Almanacs

The point of the article though was increasing the sensitivity.after just bleaching.

Ian

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Ian for your reply

pentaxuser

 

[Down Under]

Built in developer is a kiss of death for otherwise good papers, IMO.

Entirely wrong - but then this is Christmas, so let me be diplomatic (unusual for me, Sagittarian that I am) and rephrase this to, "mildly incorrect". Most respectfully, and season's best to you, sir. Long may you go on enjoying your six quid Leica - do you have one yet??

I have Multigrade III RC I bought in 1990-1991 that still prints acceptable images, without having been treated to anything special by way of storage. Australian summers can be murderous on all things photographic, cameras and the rest. The aforementioned MIII still prints up reasonably well, tho the fog level varies from sheet to sheet, making it impractical for multiple prints of the same image. This said, my MIII FB from the same period still prints consistently as well as I expect, and my standards for finished prints are quite high.

With expired papers, you(se) pays the price and you(se) gets what you(se) can. Some is good, most isn't. Storage seems to be everything. For my sanity I gave up buying expired paper from Ebay years ago, as I could never be sure paper being sold as "minty" hadn't been opened and the sheets counted in living room lighting. I now buy from other photographers or directly at photo club sales or old wares markets, where I can at least inspect the boxes to be sure they haven't been irretrievably molested by being exposed to room light by the digi-dumbs who believe all photo paper is computer-printer ready.

Activation papers are an entirely different matter. I experimented very briefly with this stuff in the mid-'80s when I (briefly) had a film processing service in Melbourne and when Ilford went into it in a big way, but I got out of it lightning-quick pronto before even Ilford wised up to what a mess it was and dumped it. A lesson very quickly learned by all parties.

 

[Down Under]

It might be possible to treat the paper dry it and keep it in a box to use later after all the article was written long before RC papers, I need to find the article, but it's one of about 35 BJP Almanacs

The point of the article though was increasing the sensitivity.after just bleaching.

Ian

One of your usual well-thought out responses, Ian, many thanks! If the stuff is real photo paper and is black, it is obviously beyond saving. Recycling for silver may well be the only option. Enough said.

May I add, to my way of thinking life is too short for (1) wasting time on outdated printing paper in the hopes of saving a few cents while really burning up valuable time best spent doing better things, and (2) for bad wine. The former is hell in the darkroom but the latter makes all-night printing sessions bearable at my age. Long may it continue for all of us.

 

[Don_ih]

You can waste such an incredible amount of time in the darkroom dealing with even slightly fogged rc paper. For example, you make a test strip on it, then expose a sheet and it doesn't look anything like any part of the test strip. The contrast doesn't respond to filters properly anymore. Fogged rc paper seems to vary sheet to sheet. It can have odd random spots on it that develop lighter or darker.
Fogged fb papers are the only ones worth trying to deal with. They are more consistent sheet to sheet and respond well to benzo. Even then, it's still wasting a massive amount of time compared to using fresh paper.

 

[Ian Grant]

may I add, to my way of thinking life is too short for (1) wasting time on outdated printing paper in the hopes of saving a few cents while really burning up valuable time best spent doing better things, and (2) for bad wine. The former is hell in the darkroom but the latter makes all-night printing sessions bearable at my age. Long may it continue for all of us.

I read something years ago that suggested that restored paper was really just suitable for contact printing. It's probably not something I would do, but years ago I did use a process to reduce the contrast of a box of Gd 4 Ilfospeed, it's easy with graded RC papers.

Ian

 

[pentaxuser]

[QUOTE="Don Heisz, post: 2497789, member: 94530"
Fogged fb papers are the only ones worth trying to deal with. They are more consistent sheet to sheet and respond well to benzo. .[/QUOTE]

Don, what's the reason why fb papers are worth dealing with in terms of fogging? Is there a reason why they respond better to benzo and are more consistent?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Don_ih]

Don, what's the reason why fb papers are worth dealing with in terms of fogging? Is there a reason why they respond better to benzo and are more consistent?

I don't really know except from experience. Fog seems more consistent across the sheet and between sheets when it's fibre paper. I've been able to get lightly fogged rc paper to develop white but it won't reach black.
I also find old low graded paper has worse fog than high graded paper. Grade 5 paper seems to last forever. Old grade 1 paper is only useful for starting fires.

 

[NB23]

Really guys, fogged paper is only good for drawing of painting over.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for the reply,Don

pentaxuser

 

[Don_ih]

Really guys, fogged paper is only good for drawing of painting over.

Pretty much. But you can determine how a particular box of paper behaves and use it appropriately. Many boxes of paper that would develop grey in Dektol will be perfect for lith prints, as an example. And lightly fogged paper is very useful for paper negatives, since it has built-in lower contrast. And fully fogged paper is just as good as new paper for chemigrams and lumen prints. And, of course, it all burns really well.

 

[NB23]

Pretty much. But you can determine how a particular box of paper behaves and use it appropriately. Many boxes of paper that would develop grey in Dektol will be perfect for lith prints, as an example. And lightly fogged paper is very useful for paper negatives, since it has built-in lower contrast. And fully fogged paper is just as good as new paper for chemigrams and lumen prints. And, of course, it all burns really well.

Yes, lightly fogged is the best for paper negatives.

It’s just that trying to salvage fogged for proper printing is a total waste of valuable time. I did that lat year, I printed photos of my kids on 750 “salvaged” 5x7 sheets. It took me quadruple the time it usually takes (a real pain) and now I’m looking at ugly photos. And no way I will be revisiting those negatives, they are burried far away with a ton of other negatives.

All in all, it was a hell of a sado-maso exercise. Sure, I saved 20$...

 

[Marco Buonocore]

Here's an image I may have shared before:

Dektol with bezotriazole on the left, lith developer (probably LD20) on the right.

The print is not mine, it was made by a colleague of mine, who is a master lith printer if there ever was one. He saw me pitching a box of Forte Polygrade because I felt it was too far gone, and made this print with it.

Some paper can absolutely be saved by making lith prints with; certainly worth having a crack at.