Can anyone give me any prediction or insight on if there will be affordable/accessible 35 mm color film

[mshchem]

Bulk film and 220. Not enough of a market. Customer drives the ship, the demand is for as many finished cassettes as possible.

 

[Don_ih]

Movie film doesn't have the frame numbers. And that would not be good for the educational market, which historically was the major target of 100 ft rolls.
To make it work, you need enough volume to be able to afford to mechanize it, in order to get the price low enough, in order to get enough volume.
You see the problem.
If Eastman Kodak had excess finishing capacity, instead of excess capacity in the other areas, you might see bulk film again.

They package bulk film, Matt. They sell 100' rolls of TriX., Tmax 100, Tmax 400. They could easily put 100 feet of whatever film they have in a can - it's completely absurd to think that they couldn't.
If they lowered the price of the bulk film, they'd be able to sell more. Foma and Ilford don't seem to have a problem finding buyers for their bulk film. There is currently no bulk still colour film available - none that I know of. They'd have no problem selling bulk rolls of Portra or Ektar. But they probably assume no one shooting those films is savvy enough to use a bulk loader.

 

[Down Under]

Why not send your film to the hotel you'll be staying at? I do this when I travel domestically. That way, there's no worring about x-rays, hand-inspections, or carrying it around.

Domestic and international are planets, even universes apart. Everything put into parcels and posted overseas these days is Xray'd to bummery (here I've intentionally omitted the two r's). In 2019 I had fresh film fried by ONE Xray pass, this from Melbourne to Bali, whether here or there is no excuse, it was done and that was that. 2022 will be worse. Alas, sadly, film is gone. Full stop, end of story. For international travel, that is. Even domestic these days, you takes your chances, you lose...

 

[Down Under]

If they lowered the price of the bulk film, they'd be able to sell more. Foma and Ilford don't seem to have a problem finding buyers for their bulk film. There is currently no bulk still colour film available - none that I know of. They'd have no problem selling bulk rolls of Portra or Ektar. But they probably assume no one shooting those films is savvy enough to use a bulk loader.

Here in Australia, we call this Dreamtime. Sadly, as much as we would like it to be so, it's gone. Done and over with. Not that it's about shooters not knowing how to use bulk film loaders, which is basic photo 101 - it's about costs, profits, and supplies.

2022 is not 2002. We all wish it was, but.

 

[Don_ih]

Here in Australia, we call this Dreamtime. Sadly, as much as we would like it to be so, it's gone. Done and over with. Not that it's about shooters not knowing how to use bulk film loaders, which is basic photo 101 - it's about costs, profits, and supplies.

2022 is not 2002. We all wish it was, but.

Well, that's nice and all, but Kodak, Ilford, and Foma do manufacture and sell film. I'm pretty sure they're not hallucinating about that. And everything is about cost, profit, supplies --- and sales, market share, and retaining customers.

 

[Agulliver]

There is always the possibility that some Chinese film line is restarted or repurposed.
Kodak just announced that they have stopped ColorPlus production, so that frees up a Chinese line and some expertise (might even have already happened).
China will be hungry to get anything started, to ramp up exports after their self-inflicted drawn out Covid 19 struggles.

Where did Kodak announce that they have stopped Color Plus production? Do you have a link?

BTW it hasn't been made in china for several years, production of Color Plus was moved back to Rochester, NY years ago.

To attempt an answer to the original question, asking to define "affordable" is important. It's not just the cost of the film, but also consider where and how you're getting it developed. Can you shop around for a cheaper lab? Would developing and scanning at home be cheaper after the initial investment in the equipment? Or do you need proper prints, which would be more difficult and require a full dark room setup.

When I spoke with Andy Church of Kodak-Alaris a few weeks ago, he said that Kodak are selling to suppliers at the cheapest they can. Supply chain issues pre-date the pandemic which obviously made things worse. Demand for colour film did unexpectedly increase which means Kodak now struggle to make enough for the market. He said they are "pretty much the only people in the world" making colour camera film. And the only way for the price to come down, is if we all buy more. Regularly.

 

[AgX]

When I spoke with Andy Church of Kodak-Alaris a few weeks ago, he said .... they are "pretty much the only people in the world" making colour camera film.

A interesting statement.

 

[Agulliver]

A interesting statement.

We know that for now, Fuji are relying on Kodak-made C41 films. I assume he was referring to C41 film as that is what we were discussing. Whether this will be a stop-gap for Fuji or an ongoing situation is anyone's guess as Japanese businesses are rarely very open about their practises. Inoviscoat must be coating film for some of the "special effects" films sold by Lomography & co, but for actual "normal" camera film, right now it probably is just Kodak.

Has anyone else seen this alleged announcement that production of ColorPlus has ceased? I've had a look around and haven't come across such news.

 

[Chan Tran]

Affordability is different from one to another. What's affordable to one may not be for others but if you feel color film isn't affordable for you now the prediction is no. It's going to be less affordable in the future. Well if a lot of people started shooting film then the price will come down and it can happen but as far as my prediction goes it won't happen.

 

[flavio81]

Where did Kodak announce that they have stopped Color Plus production?

That would be fake news. ColorPlus is selling like hot cakes.

 

[flavio81]

When I spoke with Andy Church of Kodak-Alaris a few weeks ago, he said that (...) they are "pretty much the only people in the world" making colour camera film.

This would only be true if he refers to movie film.

And Orwo is about to disrupt that this year.

 

[NB23]

They package bulk film, Matt. They sell 100' rolls of TriX., Tmax 100, Tmax 400. They could easily put 100 feet of whatever film they have in a can - it's completely absurd to think that they couldn't.
If they lowered the price of the bulk film, they'd be able to sell more. Foma and Ilford don't seem to have a problem finding buyers for their bulk film. There is currently no bulk still colour film available - none that I know of. They'd have no problem selling bulk rolls of Portra or Ektar. But they probably assume no one shooting those films is savvy enough to use a bulk loader.

Something like that.

You know, During my years in business school we’ve seen many cases of managers simply not understanding the company they were working for, nor understanding the market they were catering to.

A lot of the answers regarding kodak you will receive in this forum will be driven by american patriotism more than driven by business knowledge.

In a nutshell, it doesn’t look like kodak knows the supply and demand numbers for its own film. It looks like they manufacture a given number and moves on until the next run, with no sensible analysis.

Pretty much the DEFINITION of monopoly.

 

[MattKing]

I'm sure that if Kodak decided to subsidize heavily the cost of bulk film they could easily do so with just a small increase in the cost of individual rolls.
But why would they do that, when they have far, far, far more customers for the individual rolls, and they currently are having trouble meeting that demand?
Every time they re-direct their limited finishing resources to a small volume product like bulk rolls from the high volume, in demand product of individual rolls, there is a real cost.
Given the current situation with colour film supply, and their relatively small share of the black and white film market, I'm just glad they continue to make black and white film - 35mm in particular.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Bulk film and 220. Not enough of a market. Customer drives the ship, the demand is for as many finished cassettes as possible.

Over the years, every time I consider 220 I fined that

• There is not enough selection of film types
• It cost more than double the same film in 120
• It cost more than double to process compared to 120

 

[flavio81]

Over the years, every time I consider 220 I fined that

• There is not enough selection of film types
• It cost more than double the same film in 120
• It cost more than double to process compared to 120

Sometimes it doesn't cost more than double. See Shanghai GP3 for example.

Here at my local lab it doesn't cost more than double to process (this would make no sense). They charge me 2x the 120 roll cost.

And if you process your own film, not only it's the same cost as a 120 roll, but also you are getting more frames in the same development spool.

I agree about the selection of film types, though.

 

[Donald Qualls]

also you are getting more frames in the same development spool.

Well, unless you routinely load two 120 rolls into a single reel (Paterson type).

 

[Sirius Glass]

Well, unless you routinely load two 120 rolls into a single reel (Paterson type).

Which I do when useful. My tank takes up to four 120 rolls so if I am only developing two 120 rolls there is no need to double up.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Which I do when useful. My tank takes up to four 120 rolls so if I am only developing two 120 rolls there is no need to double up.

I still double up -- I have three sizes of Paterson tank; I can load up 6 120 rolls at a time, four in the "three-reel" tank and two in the "two reel", plus one roll of 135 in my "one reel" tank. If I've only got two rolls of the same 120 film, I don't need a whole liter of developer...

 

[MattKing]

I still double up -- I have three sizes of Paterson tank; I can load up 6 120 rolls at a time, four in the "three-reel" tank and two in the "two reel", plus one roll of 135 in my "one reel" tank. If I've only got two rolls of the same 120 film, I don't need a whole liter of developer...

Because I replenish by adding replenisher to the working solution bottle before pouring the recently used developer back in to top it up, I've standardized things by always using a litre of developer, no matter how many rolls of film I have in my 1 litre tank.
Mathematically, at least, that makes the replenishment rate slightly more consistent when I am developing different amounts of film at different times.
If he happens to be lurking, this post will probably make a certain ex-Photrio member quite happy

 

[Sirius Glass]

Because I replenish by adding replenisher to the working solution bottle before pouring the recently used developer back in to top it up, I've standardized things by always using a litre of developer, no matter how many rolls of film I have in my 1 litre tank.
Mathematically, at least, that makes the replenishment rate slightly more consistent when I am developing different amounts of film at different times.
If he happens to be lurking, this post will probably make a certain ex-Photrio member quite happy

I agree. I have found that replenishment leads to more consistent development and the replenishment process improves fine grain development, acutance [sharpness]. shadow detail and tonality.

 

[pbromaghin]

Handling 400 feet of film on a standard core (recently learned is a Kodak U core) is an adventure . I bought a 400' roll of Eastman Double X, I have a Nikor machine for loading movie film spirals for processing. I was able to adapt this for breaking down this 400'
There is no support on the sides of the 400 foot spooling, once you remove the small piece of tape holding the end of the film to the roll, you need to hold the film, to keep it from falling off the core.

Not intended to scare but one needs to be prepared.

I use this thing inside a dark bag. 2 screws (wrapped in masking tape) through several layers of glued cardboard. Big roll on the left, little roll on the right. Quit when the little roll reaches the tape.

 

[Donald Qualls]

@MattKing That's the canonical method of replenishing in a small tank environment, isn't it? Not sure how it's any more consistent to use the same volume of tank solution each time, though, unless it's a 1L container to begin with. Running 1 to 4 rolls in that developer means the pour-back will have different levels of exhaustion and different amounts of carry-over loss.

I completely agree with both of you, however, that replenishment is both an economic winner and a way to increase consistency.

 

[pbromaghin]

So I have a large freezer with film that I have kept from the hoarders.

Hmmmm. Right.

 

[mshchem]

I use this thing inside a dark bag. 2 screws (wrapped in masking tape) through several layers of glued cardboard. Big roll on the left, little roll on the right. Quit when the little roll reaches the tape.

View attachment 305333

Perfect, that's a good way to avoid a disaster!

 

[mshchem]

Before I got lazy with the Jobo, I used either a 2L or 1 US Gallon "tank". I would use what I needed, add replenisher to the "tank" bottle, and top off with the used developer.