CameraRescue, scalpers are saviours?

[Helge]

I'm having mixed feelings about CR and similar people going on rounds scouting Europe and their native countries for deals on cameras in bulk and singles, and then seemingly scalping them off.
Are they really rescuing these cameras, or are they just taking deals away from local people and playing their part in inflating prices more than necessary?

The scalping thing is well known from post-hipster retro store owners going round old peoples homes, estates, abandoned storage sales etc. making a living off of aggressively scooping up deals on furniture and brickabrack, before common people have the slightest chance. Then selling the stuff for double to ten times the price they bought it for.

Is CR the camera version of this?

Some would make the case that they actually do a CLA on these and check them over.
But I can check the camera over on my own, and if they actually were to perform a real thorough CLA on all of the cameras they get in, they would never make any money off the venture.

What's more, they treat their stuff like shit. They bunch them up in big vats and in big piles, and proudly post pictures of it.
Is that how you treat stuff you are trying to sell? And if you do, wouldn't you at least want to hide it from your customers if you had the slightest sense in your head?

There might be people who say they don't care the slightest about cosmetic condition.
Good for them. But I'd wager that they are lying.
Photography is a visually aesthetic art. It would be very weird if the people practicing it, didn't also appreciate great design and finish.
There is good patina, from loving use and there are marks after sloppy, crass, barbaric idiots (professionals among them), not appreciating good design.
Marks from being piled up is an example of the last.
There is a reason a camera in good cosmetic condition, will go for many times the price of one with similarly perfect functionality but with a dinged up, scratched body.

I have no doubt that cameras have been thrown out to a shocking degree until a few years ago, by people simply not knowing what they had. Thinking film cameras where worthless.
But I think that is an exceedingly rare occurrence today, and not something these guys could potentially play a big part in stopping the tail end of.
People still throwing away cameras are hermit like people, with little contact to others, or chance of being contacted, and not ones likely to do research.
The big lots CR buy would IMO be better kept and sold locally through a single transaction.

So, is CR doing some, or all good, or are they best avoided, both from a moral ground and personal?
Hope I haven't been to tendentious and leading with this thread title and first post. But I think it's an important discussion to have.

 

[Pioneer]

I have kind of considered Camera Rescue to be the European corollary to KEH in the US. The advantage that comes from purchasing your used camera through KEH is that they have a return policy and they inspect and grade the condition of the camera to give you some idea of what you are buying. If Camera Rescue is doing something similar then I consider that a good thing for the consumer who is interested in purchasing a used camera or lenses.

 

[BrianShaw]

Don’t be a hater...

if you think this kind of business model is something new then you may be a bit naive. It’s been going on since the dawn of commerce - including both capitalist and socialist.

 

[runswithsizzers]

I just looked at Camera Rescue's <website> which seems to be focused mostly on them buying cameras. Nowhere on their website did I see them selling cameras. After they "rescue" a camera, then what happens to it? Where have you seen piles of cameras for sale?

Not sure about the "scalping" part. Buying low and selling high is a fundamental axiom of capitalism, so I'm not sure it's fair to villify CR for that. Their .org webaddress suggests they may be a non-profit, but their website does not say so.

If I could buy used gear that has been checked for proper function that would a plus for me. I would prefer to buy from a reliable source than some random seller on eBay. But I am located in the USA, and CR does not seem to be very active here(?)

Found it. At the very end of their video they mention Kamerastore.com in Europe -- and I was able to find https://thekamerastore.com in the US. [edit: no relationship to Camera Rescue(?), so I deleted the misleading information.]

 

[Helge]

I have kind of considered Camera Rescue to be the European corollary to KEH in the US. The advantage that comes from purchasing your used camera through KEH is that they have a return policy and they inspect and grade the condition of the camera to give you some idea of what you are buying. If Camera Rescue is doing something similar then I consider that a good thing for the consumer who is interested in purchasing a used camera or lenses.

But with that comes a significant markup in price, for doing something you could potentially do yourself.
Used camera stores have always existed. And they should. They have a valuable function and provide warranty for people who need that.

What I’m concerned about is the large, concerted serious effort to seemingly scoop most used cameras to inflate prices and earn money one something that should have been a fun little hobby and be kept reasonable and local.
CR are not the only ones doing that.

No amount of CLA will provide the security of the OEM warranty and certainty of condition.
When your Mju II or F3 croaks after the limited warranty, you’re forked.

But again, I’m asking a question. I might have missed some important points.

 

[radiant]

I might be a bit biased since I live in the same town and have met these guys personally, but here goes:

It is both business and supported by finding cameras around the Europe. I can assure they are really rescuing cameras. Huge part of the cameras they have rescued would probably ended in trash without these guys. That is what I am sure of.

Also they do CLA and actual repairs for the cameras. Without that part the rescued cameras would be worthless. Also they are reviving and keeping up the skill of fixing cameras. There are some experienced technicians who are teaching new technicians and they are recruiting more.

The one part is the business. They are making money of it. Is that bad? Well, it is about everyone personal ethics. On other hand I would not expect anyone do this for free.

@runswithsizzers I believe the US site is not theirs, this is the correct "output" of CR https://kamerastore.com/

 

[Helge]

I just looked at Camera Rescue's <website> which seems to be focused mostly on them buying cameras. Nowhere on their website did I see them selling cameras. After they "rescue" a camera, then what happens to it? Where have you seen piles of cameras for sale?

Not sure about the "scalping" part. Buying low and selling high is a fundamental axiom of capitalism, so I'm not sure it's fair to villify CR for that. Their .org webaddress suggests they may be a non-profit, but their website does not say so.

If I could buy used gear that has been checked for proper function that would a plus for me. I would prefer to buy from a reliable source than some random seller on eBay. But I am located in the USA, and CR does not seem to be very active here(?)

Found it. At the very end of their video they mention Kamerastore.com in Europe and I was able to find https://thekamerastore.com in the US. The US website shows about 36 items in stock from a $125 lens to a $5500 dSLR body. While some the lenses could, quite likely, be used on analog bodies, no film bodies are listed at this time. Nor does their website allow a film-specific search. Most of what they have now seems to be relatively modern high-end digital-centric gear from Leica, Zeiss, Nikon, and Sony - which is not what I expected from an organization that claims to be more interested in keeping film cameras in the hands of users.

Another fundamental axiom of capitalism is the informed critical consumer making choices. Not making decisions that will hurt themselves in the future or be morally dubious.

I believe they are selling to camera stores.
So you are essentially buying the camera through two or three or more middlemen. All of whom want/have to make money.

 

[radiant]

What I’m concerned about is the large, concerted serious effort to seemingly scoop most used cameras to inflate prices and earn money one something that should have been a fun little hobby and be kept reasonable and local.

The guys are not inflating the prices, the buyers are. This is normal in capitalism. Apart some stupid hype cameras I don't see the prices inflating that much. Remember the cameras are checked, many of them have been CLA'd and there is return policy. Customer service, training, spaces and other HR costs. Those increases the price. It is up to the buyer if she/he wants to buy that amount of money for the product. Sure go ahead and buy the cheapest one from ebay if you are happy with the result. Someone are willing to pay money to get a working camera.

So you mean all the cameras should be rotten in basements and not being used because nobody can or will repairs them?

 

[radiant]

I believe they are selling to camera stores.

CR is not selling forwards, the cameras are sold under same roof on their website kamerastore.com.

edit: CR is under Toriverkosto Oy and kamerastore.com is owned by Kameratori Oy. I don't know about their ownership plans but I can assure you that CR and kamerastore and pretty much same company

 

[AgX]

Also they are reviving and keeping up the skill of fixing cameras. There are some experienced technicians who are teaching new technicians and they are recruiting more

This is the most important information to me, as I see such workshops being closed.
On the other hand there must be people willing to pay such service. I myself am more on the stingy side and doing such myself. Well, trying to... But I myself would not be able to make a living on my standard of workmanship as just outer cleaning by me would take prices no one would pay for the models I work on...
The more I have respect for people making a living on various models and not the few they are specialized on.as was possible in the past.

 

[Team ADOX]

But again, I’m asking a question. I might have missed some important points.

You have indeed missed several very important points:
- they are looking for unused, given-up or forgotten in cupboards cameras = first step of the rescuing process
- they buy these cameras (next step)
- they check them all intensively with professional equipment (testing accuracy of shutter speeds etc.)
- if needed they repair them (very important step in the rescuing process); currently they stated that more than 50% of the old mechanical cameras they got needed repairs! And they do it.
- they have already started production of spare parts (mechanic and electronic parts) ! That is extremely important!
- they are educating and training young repair technicians (also very important for our film community)
- after finishing they sell the checked and repaired cameras via their partner company (which is under the same roof): https://kamerastore.com/
- considering that all cameras are checked (and often repaired) the prices are very reasonable.

We know them personally. They are good guys and trustworthy. Their project is good for our film community.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

 

[runswithsizzers]

[...]

@runswithsizzers I believe the US site is not theirs, this is the correct "output" of CR https://kamerastore.com/

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, I edited my previous post accordingly.

So, is there any USA-based outlet selling gear as part of the Camera Rescue project? That is, does Camera Rescue buy and sell gear in the US?

 

[Helge]

The guys are not inflating the prices, the buyers are. This is normal in capitalism. Apart some stupid hype cameras I don't see the prices inflating that much. Remember the cameras are checked, many of them have been CLA'd and there is return policy. Customer service, training, spaces and other HR costs. Those increases the price. It is up to the buyer if she/he wants to buy that amount of money for the product. Sure go ahead and buy the cheapest one from ebay if you are happy with the result. Someone are willing to pay money to get a working camera.

So you mean all the cameras should be rotten in basements and not being used because nobody can or will repairs them?

There are various techniques for inflating prices. One of them is to make the good or service scarce on the market, by monopoly or brute force.
Homo economicus never existed.
If a real desire for something arises, the buyer is often not able to make a reasoned decision. Why wait when you have the money and want the thing "now"?
Problem is, that it could potentially price film photography out of the range of many people who just are just curious and want to try, many of whom are not willing or able to spend too much.
There is enough hurdles and BS in the way as it is.
We are not out of the woods yet WRT to the stability of film as a medium. Film can and should not be the luxury and decadent hobby of a few. That will mean the death of it.

 

[removedacct1]

If somebody buys a derelict camera for twenty bucks, spends 8 hours carefully and skillfully dismantling and restoring the camera, have they not 1) returned a camera to a valuable condition, and 2) earned a fee for doing so?

 

[Helge]

You have indeed missed several very important points:
- they are looking for unused, given-up or forgotten in cupboards cameras = first step of the rescuing process
- they buy these cameras (next step)
- they check them all intensively with professional equipment (testing accuracy of shutter speeds etc.)
- if needed they repair them (very important step in the rescuing process); currently they stated that more than 50% of the old mechanical cameras they got needed repairs! And they do it.
- they have already started production of spare parts (mechanic and electronic parts) ! That is extremely important!
- they are educating and training young repair technicians (also very important for our film community)
- after finishing they sell the checked and repaired cameras via their partner company (which is under the same roof): https://kamerastore.com/
- considering that all cameras are checked (and often repaired) the prices are very reasonable.

We know them personally. They are good guys and trustworthy. Their project is good for our film community.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

Those are some good points and your testimony means a lot.
They should make the link to Kamerastore more clear. That would make the whole thing more transparent to casual outsiders.

 

[Helge]

If somebody buys a derelict camera for twenty bucks, spends 8 hours carefully and skillfully dismantling and restoring the camera, have they not 1) returned a camera to a valuable condition, and 2) earned a fee for doing so?

Absolutely!
My problem is with buying, looking it over, like the customer could do themselves at the point of purchase, and then marking up the price X times.
Most electronic P&S (the most popular kind of camera right now) are almost impossible or at least hard to repair. So if they are really training people in fixing that kind of camera, they are indeed doing a good deed.

 

[Pioneer]

I really hope Camera Rescue works out and they make money. We need this kind of service if the film revival is going to continue.

 

[MattKing]

I would be willing to bet that their profit margin is low - what they are doing must cost a lot of money.
I see a lot of posts here from people who don't realize how much overhead there is when running a business.
A simple "markup" calculation for a business that buys and just re-sells an item is considerably different than the calculation required when the business need to invest a lot more resources in the items that end up being sold. And if the business has a training component, the costs associated are even higher.

 

[BrianShaw]

If somebody buys a derelict camera for twenty bucks, spends 8 hours carefully and skillfully dismantling and restoring the camera, have they not 1) returned a camera to a valuable condition, and 2) earned a fee for doing so?

I’d take that even further... If someone possesses and offers for sale a camera, regardless of condition or acquisition price, and someone is willing to pay that price... haven’t they earned the right to, guilt-free and without external judgement, profit?

 

[BrianShaw]

I really hope Camera Rescue works out and they make money. We need this kind of service if the film revival is going to continue.

Absolutely!

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

They appear to be a used camera dealer, selling at dealer prices for used gear, and they’re focused on analogue. Sounds okay to me. Some people are more comfortable purchasing from a dealer like B&H or Adorama or KEH with an established business and repair staff and are willing to pay extra for that kind of arrangement. If they’re buying low from estate sales and such, good for them. Occasionally I’ll check out estate sales, and most of what’s there is junk. If they’re willing to sort through the junk to find the gems, then that’s a service worth paying for, for some people.

Personally, I like to buy things used at a low price and then have them serviced as needed by the best technician for that particular item, rather than by a generalist in-house repair staff, but I don’t mind doing the research for that purpose. That’s not everyone.

 

[pbromaghin]

OH MY GOD! Somebody is MAKING MONEY! Oh, the humanity! <breaks down sobbing>.

 

[Helge]

OH MY GOD! Somebody is MAKING MONEY! Oh, the humanity! <breaks down sobbing>.

Of course it’s not the making money part. We need people making money to make film viable.

It would be a problem if they artificially inserted themselves as a middle man between the used gear original owners/inheritors and the buyer.

If they do perform a sensible and useful function and teaching ground for repair techs and an accumulator and even producer of spare parts, then they perform a worthwhile function and are worth supporting.

 

[Helge]

I’d take that even further... If someone possesses and offers for sale a camera, regardless of condition or acquisition price, and someone is willing to pay that price... haven’t they earned the right to, guilt-free and without external judgement, profit?

In a legal sense yes. But imagine that someone bought all the rice and fields in a region of China.
Then they’d be able to set the price however they wanted and and push up the price for the remaining farmers.
It’s in essence why monopoly is frowned upon and why there in the ultimate sense are antitrust laws.
The difference is all in the scale and intent.

 

[StepheKoontz]

What is going to kill film off quickly is if new users have to depend on a 40 year old camera, that's been sitting on a shelf for 20 years, as the tool used to shoot film. If the first roll they get back, at a fairly considerable expense, is garbage because the camera is defective, they are not likely to continue shooting fim.