C41 Formulas

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James Wallace

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These pretty much match the original formulas we used during R&D of C41 products in the '80s.


Enjoy.

PE

Thank you very much for this revelation.

I have made a couple runs to fine-tune it (got ph 10.17-10.21 which was first unnoticed by my crappy ph-meter), but then I was astonished by quality.

Much sharper, more dense and true to colors than Tetenal, Digibase, Rollei and other third-company pre-made packs.

Even though I use ferricyanide bleach I now get well color balanced negatices, that could be easily scanned ad color-corrected in post-edit. Even fuji films now look natural, which I never considered possible in my amateur workflow.

Thank you, thank you, PE. That was amazing experience!!!

Long days and color wins!
 

Alain Deloc

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Thank you very much for this revelation.

I have made a couple runs to fine-tune it (got ph 10.17-10.21 which was first unnoticed by my crappy ph-meter), but then I was astonished by quality.

Much sharper, more dense and true to colors than Tetenal, Digibase, Rollei and other third-company pre-made packs.

Even though I use ferricyanide bleach I now get well color balanced negatices, that could be easily scanned ad color-corrected in post-edit. Even fuji films now look natural, which I never considered possible in my amateur workflow.

Thank you, thank you, PE. That was amazing experience!!!

Long days and color wins!

Hello there! I know that's an old thread, but it worth to try 🙂 I want to mix photo engineer formula and I got almost all elements for developer. There is one component which is confusing me a bit and I wanted to ask someone who already mix it. It's about Dyethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid pentasodium salt (40% sol.) ----- 8.43g. I am not sure if it's grams or it should be mL , because the formula is given as 40% solution. How did you measured this one?
 

Rudeofus

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Hello there! I know that's an old thread, but it worth to try 🙂 I want to mix photo engineer formula and I got almost all elements for developer. There is one component which is confusing me a bit and I wanted to ask someone who already mix it. It's about Dyethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid pentasodium salt (40% sol.) ----- 8.43g. I am not sure if it's grams or it should be mL , because the formula is given as 40% solution. How did you measured this one?

Kodak loved to measure by weight - even liquids - because weight measurements were so much more accurate. You will find Kodak patents, which require solid and liquid ingredients, all measured in grams.
 

Alain Deloc

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Kodak loved to measure by weight - even liquids - because weight measurements were so much more accurate. You will find Kodak patents, which require solid and liquid ingredients, all measured in grams.

Thanks! That's all I needed to know! 🙂
 

lamerko

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Hello,
I decided to test the formula, but I'm having a hard time getting DTPA - too expensive and too slow to ship. Can it be replaced with Calgon or EDTA-4na/EDTA-2na?
How important is this component and what would be the consequences of missing it?
 

Alain Deloc

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Hello,
I decided to test the formula, but I'm having a hard time getting DTPA - too expensive and too slow to ship. Can it be replaced with Calgon or EDTA-4na/EDTA-2na?
How important is this component and what would be the consequences of missing it?

I am going to mix this C41 formula very soon (maybe today). From what have noticed, DTPA is quite alkaline, around pH 12. So you can skip it and replace it with Calgon, but the target pH of your developer won't be the same. If you decide to skip it, you are going to need a pH meter. Mix everything, measure the final working solution pH and adjust it with NaOH (solution) or acetic acid until you reach ph 10.0 or 10.1 as @James Wallace said here in this thread. Skipping DTPA will probably affect the shelf life of your developer. This compound works as sequestering agent and it deals with iron and copper impurities. If your water is distilled, then Calgon (sodium hexametaphosphate)will deal with calcium from water. But there might be impurities in the other powders you are going to mix.
Can it be replaced with Calgon or EDTA-4Na/EDTA-2Na?

EDTA-4Na/EDTA-2Na is weaker than DTPA and will not sequester Fe and Cu to the point, where it stops Fenton's reaction. You use EDTA to solve problems with water hardness, but not with decomposition of developer.

I think you can skip DTPA with pH readjustment, but keep in mind that your developer might live shorter, depending on how you're planning to use it.
 

albada

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EDTA-4Na/EDTA-2Na is weaker than DTPA and will not sequester Fe and Cu to the point, where it stops Fenton's reaction. You use EDTA to solve problems with water hardness, but not with decomposition of developer.

I thought the Fenton reaction hurt only developers containing ascorbate, and I've never seen a C-41 formula with ascorbate. So Fenton should not be a problem. So EDTA should work fine (try 1.7 g/L).
However, @Alain Deloc is still correct: Replacing DTPA with EDTA might cause pH to change, so a pH meter will be helpful.

Mark
 

lamerko

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Thanks for the answers.
I am familiar with the PH compensation - I have a PH meter, but at the moment I have problems with it - it gives a deviation of about +0.3-0.4 and because of the large difference it refuses to calibrate. The electrode is new, but there must be something wrong with the stay or delivery - I will torture it with cleaning fluid, if not - I will order a new one...
 

Alain Deloc

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it gives a deviation of about +0.3-0.4

Yeah, try to maintain it in +/-0.1 range. A 0.05 precision would be great, but pH meters that delivers 0.05 precision for real are quite expensive. Keep in mind that measuring precision is not the same thing with display digits : there are tons of yellow pen-style cheap meters that will give 2 digits readings with a +/-0.5~1 measurement precision
 

Anon Ymous

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Thanks for the answers.
I am familiar with the PH compensation - I have a PH meter, but at the moment I have problems with it - it gives a deviation of about +0.3-0.4 and because of the large difference it refuses to calibrate. The electrode is new, but there must be something wrong with the stay or delivery - I will torture it with cleaning fluid, if not - I will order a new one...

If I were you, I'd also check the batteries. I had a pH meter drifting wildly and it needed fresh batteries.
 

lamerko

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Yes, I understand, but I don't have a big budget for precision technics.
My model is an ETI 8100 Plus - I bought it after a quick search on the web.
For the batteries there is an indicator that shows maximum charge, but I might try that too...
 

Alain Deloc

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Yes, I understand, but I don't have a big budget for precision technics.
My model is an ETI 8100 Plus - I bought it after a quick search on the web.
For the batteries there is an indicator that shows maximum charge, but I might try that too...

That's a good pH meter. Also, you have to calibrate it constantly.
 

lamerko

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There's the problem - because of the big deviation, it can't be calibrated...
 

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Radost

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Question: not trying to stir anything.
But why not just by Kodak c41?
 

Anon Ymous

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Question: not trying to stir anything.
But why not just by Kodak c41?

Availability and minimum quantity. And minimum quantity may go bad before it's used, as opposed to homebrewing where you only make what you need And some people fancy homebrewing.
 

koraks

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why not just by Kodak c41?

From my perspective, the main reason to explore compounding (color) developers is that they can be mixed on-demand in the quantity necessary, ensuring consistent performance and fresh product. The dry components have a very long shelf life - decades under decent storage conditions. So for a typical home lab, where volumes are low and processing tends to occur intermittently, DIY chemistry in principle makes sense. But it comes at the cost of a certain level of complexity.
 

Mr Bill

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I have a PH meter, but at the moment I have problems with it - it gives a deviation of about +0.3-0.4 and because of the large difference it refuses to calibrate. The electrode is new, but there must be something wrong with the stay or delivery - I will torture it with cleaning fluid, if not - I will order a new one...

Hi, I'm not familiar with that meter, but typically problems with "drifting" are due to the electrodes. In the distant past I used to 1) read a lot of photo chem pH values, and 2) do a lot of troubleshooting of pH electrodes.

That said, I don't know what kind of electrode(s) you are using, but there oughta be some sort of instructions for it/them.

As a very brief primer, there are two electrodes involved. One is the pH electrode, and typically uses a very special glass in the tip; it's thin and delicate, and should not be "messed around" with. The other is called a reference electrode, and... well, let's say that many use a "filling solution" which slowly leaks into the sample, while others use some sort of "gel." If yours uses a filling solution (typically a strongish KCl solution) then you must be sure to keep it adequately filled, and always be sure to keep the filling solution at a higher level than the sample. (If there is a "plug" for the fill hole, remove the plug during use.) Sometimes these can "clog" at the "junction," where the filling solution meets the sample. The electrode manufacturer will typically have instructions on how deal with these things.

Now, many cheaper systems will combine the two into a single physical electrode so it appears that there is only one; but functionally there are two. Where I'm from we would always use separate electrodes (pH vs reference) largely for the ability to troubleshoot by swapping out individual electrodes.

All this aside, here's what I would try, in your position. First, never "wipe" the electrode, but you can blot liquid off the tip, if needed. I note that your photos show a temperature of about 15 C, which is colder than I ever used. Photo chem pH specs are typically given for something like 20 or 25 C; this is where I would be reading samples. Also I would wonder if a "room-temperature" saturated filling solution might be partially precipitated in the junction.

I would try soaking the electrodes (in the manner of taking readings) in a slightly warmer (say 25 C) pH 7 buffer for a couple of hours, then see if this helps. When you change buffers (or samples) I'd lightly rinse down the electrode with distilled water from a plastic squirt bottle, the kind where you squeeze the bottle and water squirts out the nozzle. Then either shake gently or lightly blot to take loose droplets off the tip. When you put it into the next sample, gently swirl the sample container to help mix things up, then let it sit motionless for the reading.

For some more detailed information look at Kodak publication CIS-121. Note that they recommend constant stirring while measuring pH; this is not normally needed for general use. (If you are using a research-grade meter that reads out to 3 decimal places then constant stirring might improve results.)

Many people think it's easy to take pH readings, but there's a lot more to it than meets the eye. Color developers can be especially difficult, with misleading results. If someone wants to be sure they are getting proper results with a C-41 developer I would recommend first mixing an official Kodak mix (as a known-good reference) then take that reading as your future aim.

Best of luck.
 

lamerko

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I'm not too sure what type the electrode is - it's labeled "general purpose pH electrode (823-501)" . There is not much information about it (PDF), but it is a clear tube with another thin tube inside. At the bottom it ends with a guard and a glass ball. There is no plug for pouring liquid, at least I can't see. Above the glass ball is something like an insulator between the two tubes. Attached to the electrode is a small plastic bottle - probably with liquid for storage.
One thing that struck me though - the little tube looked almost empty with liquid residue visible on the TOP. Yesterday I left it vertical and this morning the fluid in the little tube seemed to have gone down. I'll take pictures tonight...
 

Mr Bill

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Hi, thanks for the additional info,, but it doesn't seem to tell much. Looking at info for the meter they have something under "sensor type" as "combination electrode." So I presume that it is a complete unit (both a reference and pH sensor are built into a single unit).

The company doesn't say anything about "filling solution" so I presume nothing is needed; no maintenance.

So it looks like nothing else to be done; just plug it in and use it. I would personally try warming up the pH 7 buffer to around 25 C and let the end of the probe soak for about 2 hours (or more). Then try again to see if it will calibrate with a pH 10 buffer. If not I'd probably try contacting the seller to confirm things.

Fwiw a pH 10 buffer is not stable when exposed to air; the pH will drift. So you want to do that part of the calibration within a half hour or so of pouring out the 10 buffer. (The pH 7 buffers ARE stable; no problem with them.)


At the bottom it ends with a guard and a glass ball.
That is most likely the special (and delicate) glass for the pH sensing part of the probe. With these it's normal to need to "hydrate" the probe before using. This is what the soaking in the 7-buffer is for.

In our operation we always had out two of the pH electrodes (the very expensive ones spec'd by Kodak in the day). One was in daily use, always in the 7-buffer. The other, also sitting in a 7-buffer. Every day the electrodes were alternated (they tend to get "fatigued" with heavy use). By always being in the 7-buffer they remained hydrated, and ready for use. In addition to this we had a third, new in box, pH electrode on hand. This could be used in an emergency, knowing that it would need a couple hours to hydrate (in a 7-buffer) before use. Eventually the pH electrode response will degrade outside of a "normal" range and gets trashed (discarded). We know this because the electrode needs an excessive "slope" adjustment. There is a theoretical pH electrode response; pH 7 is like a "zero" setting for the meter. Then the 10-buffer gets a "slope" setting. If the actual slope requirement, for a real pH electrode, differs from the theoretical by more than a few percent, then the electrode is considered "bad." Now, in one of your photos, the meter display indicates "slope error..." So it seems to think that something is wrong here. Perhaps (hopefully) the glass pH bulb was just not hydrated enough (?) I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!
 

albada

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+1 for the postings by @Mr Bill . In addition, your probe should have come with a small container that screws onto the bottom of the probe, and that container should have enough "storage solution" in it to cover the bulb. Using it, your probe is always hydrated. But when it's screwed on, never slide the container upward on the probe, as that will force storage solution through the junction, harming the probe.

Mark
 

lamerko

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Small update
I left the electrode upright to make good contact with the liquid in the small bottle for 24 hours. I then left it in the 7.0 pH sample - the effect is that it went down to about 7.21 pH but not enough to calibrate. I don't currently have a 10 pH buffer - I will buy one, but I have no hopes. I wrote on the manufacturer's website about the problem, but I guess a new one will have to be bought, which is an additional expense and time. It's probably under warranty, but I'm in another country and getting it back to the UK would be ridiculously expensive.

Update 2
The guys at ETI sent me a new electrode directly. It will take a while to ship - hope all is well :smile:
 
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lantau

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I hope I didn't miss it, but has your electrode got something like a rubber plug somewhere towards the top of the glass shaft? Mine has a rubber band instead.

It needs to be open during use. And, obviously, don't dip the electrode to deep. Sample must not go in there.

When open, it will allow the hydrostatic pressure to push a tiny amount of electrolyte out of the sinter channel at the bottom of the electrode. That prevents sample from getting in there while still making an electrically conducting connection.

You also should have a small bottle of electrolyte, which can be used to refill through that hole.

Of course you may have a zero maintenance gel electrode. Then ignore what I said. Probably. I never used one.
 

Mr Bill

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The guys at ETI sent me a new electrode directly.

Hi, well hopefully this will resolve things.

In the meantime I was gonna ask if your exact calibration procedure was correct, but I expect that you already went over this with ETI. I did d/l the operators manual from their website, and note that they DO allow adjusting for a slightly different value for the pH 7 buffer. So I wonder if you may have accidentally set this to a different value? Might be worth rechecking this if you have not already done so.

Best of luck!
 

lamerko

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Hello,
The second electrode arrived. Unfortunately, the readings were very close to the old one. And also - again without the possibility of calibration. I bought new batteries and then remembered to leave the pH meter without batteries for 24 hours. This seemed to give some result - again the readings were very off (about 0.20), when trying to calibrate - it gives an error, BUT the difference is that it actually calibrates now! I will make a video of my actions tonight. In the box of the new electrode was written what was in the small bottle - when I get home I will write. Also managed to find DTPA-5Na - I'm waiting for delivery :smile:
 
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