C-41 processing for neophytes

StoneNYC · Dec 28, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
I mix up a 5L kit and it lasts me for months in a sealed bottle with no air. Used, I have kept chemistry for 2 - 3 months and fresh up to 6 months, but the key is NO AIR EXPOSURE.

Actually, I use Nitrogen gas as the 5 L bottle is used, and I store odds and ends in 1L or 1/2L bottles filled to the top.

PE

Ok so if I don't have access to nitrogen gas, and only store in the brown glass chemistry bottles (because the owner insists they don't feel comfortable with plastic bottle storage in the basement) then how do you keep it air tight? I've seen marbles mentioned so I tried this, but this only meant spilled marbles into my paterson tank and cracked glass chips in the developer. not putting the marbles in the developer, but when they spilled out while I was filing the paterson tank, some went down the garbage disposal too, it was a disaster...

That's why I'm trying for smaller bottles of concentrate.

And you say no air exposure, so this means period right? So how can I mix the powder and water without exposure? Or do you just mean constant air exposure, so if I fill the bottle to the brim and there is just a tiny air bubble, is that good enough for a few months do you think?

Or is there some tool I'm missing that does this?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Photo Engineer · Dec 28, 2012

Brown bottles are not needed! Clear glass or plastic which prevents air from entering are OK. There are many threads on this subject here on APUG. Either fill the bottles to the top, use marbles or use Nitrogen.

Your biggest problem is mixing powder with water. This involves a lot of air. Liquid kits involve more air entrainment. I suggest that you look into them. A larger liquid kit with less air is probably better than a solid powder kit with more air during mixing. IDK for sure.

So, I mix, fill to the top, screw shut and done! In fact, some bottles have concave tops to force tight fits.

PE

macandal · Dec 28, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
...or you can use them several times by increasing the development times according to the chart on the Kodak web site.

Ok, PE. I'm not one to want everything delivered to him on a platter but I HAVE LOOKED and cannot find this chart on the Kodak site you are referring to. Could you please send me a link to it? Thank you so very much.

cepwin · Dec 28, 2012

Yeah, there are some excellent videos on YouTube where it's demonstrated properly....I believe the one I saw was done by an APUGer.

StoneNYC · Dec 29, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Brown bottles are not needed! Clear glass or plastic which prevents air from entering are OK. There are many threads on this subject here on APUG. Either fill the bottles to the top, use marbles or use Nitrogen.

Your biggest problem is mixing powder with water. This involves a lot of air. Liquid kits involve more air entrainment. I suggest that you look into them. A larger liquid kit with less air is probably better than a solid powder kit with more air during mixing. IDK for sure.

So, I mix, fill to the top, screw shut and done! In fact, some bottles have concave tops to force tight fits.

PE

Thanks, I was only looking to confirm that the fill to the top method was acceptable thanks!

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

wogster · Dec 29, 2012

StoneNYC said:
Ok so if I don't have access to nitrogen gas, and only store in the brown glass chemistry bottles (because the owner insists they don't feel comfortable with plastic bottle storage in the basement) then how do you keep it air tight? I've seen marbles mentioned so I tried this, but this only meant spilled marbles into my paterson tank and cracked glass chips in the developer. not putting the marbles in the developer, but when they spilled out while I was filing the paterson tank, some went down the garbage disposal too, it was a disaster...

That's why I'm trying for smaller bottles of concentrate.

And you say no air exposure, so this means period right? So how can I mix the powder and water without exposure? Or do you just mean constant air exposure, so if I fill the bottle to the brim and there is just a tiny air bubble, is that good enough for a few months do you think?

Or is there some tool I'm missing that does this?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

The best thing to do, determine how much you need, say you use a steel tank that holds 250ml, you buy a case of 24 250ml bottles, you need 4 per Litre, so 20 for 5L, you have 4 spares in case some get broken. Get a B&W print tray, and put the first empty bottle in it, and fill to the brim and add the cap, keep doing this until you run out of developer, pour from the tray back into the container and continue on, until all the developer is in bottles. Wash the bottles off and let them dry. Get some plastic wrap or aluminium foil, cut into 6" squares, put this over each cap and seal with electrical tape. Although glass bottles are air tight, they often use plastic lids that are not, so the plastic wrap is an extra air seal. Many developers can live in those bottles air tight for months. The seal is also an indicator to you, that the bottle has not been used. So you should have one or more sealed ones, and one unsealed one. When the developer in a bottle is all used up, you dump it, wash out the bottle, put it with the clean ones and unseal another. One note, a 250ml bottle filled to the brim is probably closer to 275ml, as the bottles are designed to be only partly filled.

Bleach needs some air, so it can go in a single bottle. Fixer and final rinse don't really care one way or the other. Although you can often just mix it as you need it. So if your using 250ml at a time, and there is 1L of concentrate to make 5L you can mix 50ml of concentrate with 200ml of water to make 250ml, and that reduces contamination, in that if it gets skunky you can toss the working solution and mix fresh. One key trick, get one of those multi-colour packs of electrical tape, use one colour for developer, another for bleach, another for fixer, another for rinse, if developer is green, and you going to pour in the developer and your reaching for a bottle that has a red band, you should be going ...:confused:

StoneNYC · Dec 29, 2012

wogster said:
The best thing to do, determine how much you need, say you use a steel tank that holds 250ml, you buy a case of 24 250ml bottles, you need 4 per Litre, so 20 for 5L, you have 4 spares in case some get broken. Get a B&W print tray, and put the first empty bottle in it, and fill to the brim and add the cap, keep doing this until you run out of developer, pour from the tray back into the container and continue on, until all the developer is in bottles. Wash the bottles off and let them dry. Get some plastic wrap or aluminium foil, cut into 6" squares, put this over each cap and seal with electrical tape. Although glass bottles are air tight, they often use plastic lids that are not, so the plastic wrap is an extra air seal. Many developers can live in those bottles air tight for months. The seal is also an indicator to you, that the bottle has not been used. So you should have one or more sealed ones, and one unsealed one. When the developer in a bottle is all used up, you dump it, wash out the bottle, put it with the clean ones and unseal another. One note, a 250ml bottle filled to the brim is probably closer to 275ml, as the bottles are designed to be only partly filled.

Bleach needs some air, so it can go in a single bottle. Fixer and final rinse don't really care one way or the other. Although you can often just mix it as you need it. So if your using 250ml at a time, and there is 1L of concentrate to make 5L you can mix 50ml of concentrate with 200ml of water to make 250ml, and that reduces contamination, in that if it gets skunky you can toss the working solution and mix fresh. One key trick, get one of those multi-colour packs of electrical tape, use one colour for developer, another for bleach, another for fixer, another for rinse, if developer is green, and you going to pour in the developer and your reaching for a bottle that has a red band, you should be going ...:confused:

Haha yea I color label mine according to ilford bottle colors (Red Green blue).

Thanks, though tray mixing would expose the developer to a lot of air during this process. But I think I've figured it out, looks like its B&H bottle ordering time again!

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Photo Engineer · Dec 29, 2012

OFFICIAL C41 process cycle and capacity

I've posted this many many times. It is also on the Kodak web site in the instructions for small tank and rotary processing. This information was packaged with my C41 developer as the box stuffer.

It should be part of the toolkit of every C41 processor.

Happy New Year guys.

PE

macandal · Dec 29, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
I've posted this many many times. It is also on the Kodak web site in the instructions for small tank and rotary processing. This information was packaged with my C41 developer as the box stuffer.

It should be part of the toolkit of every C41 processor.

Happy New Year guys.

PE

Thanks PE. Happy new year to you too.

wogster · Dec 29, 2012

StoneNYC said:
Haha yea I color label mine according to ilford bottle colors (Red Green blue).

Thanks, though tray mixing would expose the developer to a lot of air during this process. But I think I've figured it out, looks like its B&H bottle ordering time again!

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

I didn't say to mix in the tray, your using the tray as you fill the bottles to make sure you don't lose any of the developer as you over pour the bottles.

StoneNYC · Dec 29, 2012

wogster said:
I didn't say to mix in the tray, your using the tray as you fill the bottles to make sure you don't lose any of the developer as you over pour the bottles.

OH haha!!! Thanks

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Rudeofus · Dec 29, 2012

wogster said:
Bleach needs some air, so it can go in a single bottle. Fixer and final rinse don't really care one way or the other. Although you can often just mix it as you need it.

I agree about the bleach and the final rinse but would advise caution with the fixer. The fixer is mostly Ammonium Thiosulfate which will go bad eventually, especially when mixed into a working solution. Unless you plan on using the kit within a few months, I recommend a procedure where unused concentrate is kept in a tightly sealed bottle (or several of them, depending on use), and working solution is only mixed as needed and used within a few weeks.

And yes, I have had fixer concentrate sulfur out on me in less than a year.

wogster · Dec 29, 2012

Rudeofus said:
I agree about the bleach and the final rinse but would advise caution with the fixer. The fixer is mostly Ammonium Thiosulfate which will go bad eventually, especially when mixed into a working solution. Unless you plan on using the kit within a few months, I recommend a procedure where unused concentrate is kept in a tightly sealed bottle (or several of them, depending on use), and working solution is only mixed as needed and used within a few weeks.

And yes, I have had fixer concentrate sulfur out on me in less than a year.

I usually keep fixer in concentrate and mix as needed. Generally though you want to buy in small enough quantities that you will use it up before it expires, this is tough when the smallest jug you can buy makes up 50 gallons, but for a 5L kit, you should be OK.

Rudeofus · Dec 30, 2012

wogster said:
this is tough when the smallest jug you can buy makes up 50 gallons, but for a 5L kit, you should be OK.

It was a 5l kit that failed on me because I didn't fill the opened container with inert gas after taking out fixer concentrate. A 5l kit develops 60-80 rolls of film, which is more than I shoot within a year.

All I wanted to point out was that fixer is less stable than bleach and STAB and that one should be careful when storing it over a long time frame.

StoneNYC · Dec 30, 2012

Rudeofus said:
It was a 5l kit that failed on me because I didn't fill the opened container with inert gas after taking out fixer concentrate. A 5l kit develops 60-80 rolls of film, which is more than I shoot within a year.

All I wanted to point out was that fixer is less stable than bleach and STAB and that one should be careful when storing it over a long time frame.

Thanks I'm ordering a bunch of smaller bottles when I get back from the Grand Canyon on the 15th

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

macandal · Jan 2, 2013

I did it. I finally did it. I developed my first roll of color.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

fotch · Jan 3, 2013

macandal said:
I did it. I finally did it. I developed my first roll of color.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Congratulation.

macandal · Jan 4, 2013

Okay, I may have spoken too soon. I developed my first roll of color. I got images. However, my negatives look brownish/redish. According to Henry Horenstein (Color Photography: A Working Manual) my "Negatives [are] too magenta, with density highest on edges near sprocket holes". My negatives are simply too magenta, nothing is really happening on the edges. He says that the probable causes are "1) Developer temperature too high; 2) Overagitation developer; 3) Development time too long". I can't really agree that any of this happened to me. I kept the temperature of my chemicals at around 100 F. I didn't overagitate. I kept my developing time according to the instructions on my kit. Hmmmm..?

My kit says that the "color of the mask [is] brownish". The cause is that my "bleach and fixing time [was] too short". I also can't agree with this. Like I said, I followed the instructions to the letter. However, after consulting with the people at Rayko, we decided that perhaps it was a good idea to re-bleach and re-fix my negatives. They suggested that I do this at room temperature. However, room temperature at this time of year in San Francisco is about 50F. At 77F bleaching and fixing must be done for 6 and 7 minutes respectively. So, if I do it at room temp., at 50F, I was going to double the times. I was going to bleach and fix for 12 minutes. Their instructions are not the best either. For agitation, they say, "Agitate once every 30 seconds." So, every 30 seconds you turn it once and that's it? I didn't know what to do, so, every 30 seconds, I would agitate for 5 seconds (turning) and let it be until my next agitation cycle.

Anyway, that's what happened and that's what I'm going to do. If anyone has any experience with the Rollei kit, please, help me out here. Also, if anyone has any suggestions, they're welcome. Thanks.

StoneNYC · Jan 4, 2013

macandal said:
Okay, I may have spoken too soon. I developed my first roll of color. I got images. However, my negatives look brownish/redish. According to Henry Horenstein (Color Photography: A Working Manual) my "Negatives [are] too magenta, with density highest on edges near sprocket holes". My negatives are simply too magenta, nothing is really happening on the edges. He says that the probable causes are "1) Developer temperature too high; 2) Overagitation developer; 3) Development time too long". I can't really agree that any of this happened to me. I kept the temperature of my chemicals at around 100 F. I didn't overagitate. I kept my developing time according to the instructions on my kit. Hmmmm..?

My kit says that the "color of the mask [is] brownish". The cause is that my "bleach and fixing time [was] too short". I also can't agree with this. Like I said, I followed the instructions to the letter. However, after consulting with the people at Rayko, we decided that perhaps it was a good idea to re-bleach and re-fix my negatives. They suggested that I do this at room temperature. However, room temperature at this time of year in San Francisco is about 50F. At 77F bleaching and fixing must be done for 6 and 7 minutes respectively. So, if I do it at room temp., at 50F, I was going to double the times. I was going to bleach and fix for 12 minutes. Their instructions are not the best either. For agitation, they say, "Agitate once every 30 seconds." So, every 30 seconds you turn it once and that's it? I didn't know what to do, so, every 30 seconds, I would agitate for 5 seconds (turning) and let it be until my next agitation cycle.

Anyway, that's what happened and that's what I'm going to do. If anyone has any experience with the Rollei kit, please, help me out here. Also, if anyone has any suggestions, they're welcome. Thanks.

Did you also heat your blix to the 100 mark or leave that at 50f? That might be your problem? If your temp is that low in the house (you're crazy) then you might have had temperature drop in the developer bath. Heck even Holdong the tank for the proper development time during agitation would cause a severe drop in temp in such a cold environment....

You might want to cook it at 105 next time so as the temp drops it won't be so low at the end?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

macandal · Jan 4, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Did you also heat your blix to the 100 mark or leave that at 50f? That might be your problem? If your temp is that low in the house (you're crazy) then you might have had temperature drop in the developer bath. Heck even Holdong the tank for the proper development time during agitation would cause a severe drop in temp in such a cold environment....

You might want to cook it at 105 next time so as the temp drops it won't be so low at the end?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

I didn't develop at home. I did it at Rayko (a facility here in San Francisco). I don't use blix, I use bleach and fixer separately. Neither was at 50F. They were both at 100F (I kept checking).

Photo Engineer · Jan 4, 2013

Scan in a reversed sample please.

PE

macandal · Jan 4, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
Scan in a reversed sample please.

PE

Will do when I get a chance. But, what do you mean by "reversed sample"?

Photo Engineer · Jan 4, 2013

Scan it as a negative to give a positive image.

PE

macandal · Jan 4, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
Scan it as a negative to give a positive image.

PE

Oh. Duh! Ok. Got it.

polyglot · Jan 4, 2013

You can fix (or introduce) nearly any error in scanning C41. So for us to get a good idea of what the negs look like, please also post a simple digital photo of the negs. If you have access to RA4 materials in that facility to make a colour print, that would also be enlightening.

C-41 processing for neophytes

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