C-41 processing for neophytes

michaelbsc · Nov 6, 2012

polyglot said:
I'm kind of terrified that you can buy a food-warming device that will happily keep your food right in the middle of the bacterial-growth zone.

We make up for it by government mandated safety packaging on razor blades and stuffed children's toys.

macandal · Dec 17, 2012

polyglot said:
You can buy colour stuff separately (and that's how labs do it, 50L+ at a time) but there are so many components that the manufacturers tend to sell kits. It's the easy way to make sure you aren't missing a component.

A proper C41 process requires a developer (3 concentrates), bleach, fixer and stabiliser. That's 6 different concentrates you need to mix up into 4 baths, which means that buying separately is annoying, especially if you don't know exactly what you need. E6 is slightly more complicated again.

Ok. So which "kit" do you recommend?

polyglot · Dec 17, 2012

The Fuji or the Rollei, depending on availability. The Rollei has had issues with leaky packages and developer parts DOA, but it's easier (in the EU anyway) to buy the Rollei components separately in small (i.e. 100mL and 1L, not 20L) quantities. I think the Fuji costs more, the Rollei has slightly higher dev capacity in the kit and the Fuji has twice the bleach/fix capacity in the kit.

Sirius Glass · Dec 17, 2012

michaelbsc said:
Remember that for decades the high priesthood of color proclaimed how difficult it was.

Oh! Gosh! What?? I never got that memo! In the '60s [19 not 18] I processed Ektachome in the basement sink and did not think it was hard.

macandal · Dec 17, 2012

polyglot said:
The Fuji or the Rollei, depending on availability. The Rollei has had issues with leaky packages and developer parts DOA, but it's easier (in the EU anyway) to buy the Rollei components separately in small (i.e. 100mL and 1L, not 20L) quantities. I think the Fuji costs more, the Rollei has slightly higher dev capacity in the kit and the Fuji has twice the bleach/fix capacity in the kit.

This is what they have available at Freestyle (great place to shop):

http://freestylephoto.biz/c1001-Color-Chemicals-Color-Print

polyglot · Dec 17, 2012

You might want to consider shopping elsewhere for your colour chems. I buy plenty of stuff from Freestyle but there's no point in sticking with just one store if they don't stock what you want.

They do have the mini Rollei kit, but there's not much capacity (10 rolls) in that. It'd be a good thing if you just wanted to try developing a handful of rolls though and not forking out for 80-100 rolls worth.

macandal · Dec 18, 2012

polyglot said:
You might want to consider shopping elsewhere for your colour chems. I buy plenty of stuff from Freestyle but there's no point in sticking with just one store if they don't stock what you want.

But they have the Rollei kit which you recommended? Or is it another Rollei kit, not the one Freestyle is selling, that you're recommending?

In any case, I guess it'll have to be freestyle because they appear to be one of the very few places in the US that sells color chemistry. Others sell other brands. None sell Fuji. I put a call into Glass Key Photo here in San Francisco. Matt has a very tiny store but he surprises you by selling stuff you can usually only find online.

Another question. If I shoot a roll of Kodak film, I can only develop it with Kodak chemistry? (And the same question goes if I shoot fuji?) Or can I use any brand chemistry for any brand of film? Thanks.

MartinP · Dec 18, 2012

C41 should be C41. In the huge mass-market labs of pre-digital times, when zillions of rolls of happy-snaps arrived it was necessary to put everything through the same machines, so that is how the process and films were designed.

polyglot · Dec 18, 2012

They have a very small (500mL) Rollei kit - 10 rolls worth, which has such a tiny quantity of stabiliser that it's reportedly difficult to use. It's fine if you only want to develop 10 rolls or see if C41 is for you, but it's a small kit. I was thinking more along the lines of the 2L (40 rolls) or 5L (100 rolls) Rollei kits that Freestyle no longer carries.

MartinP said:
C41 should be C41. In the huge mass-market labs of pre-digital times, when zillions of rolls of happy-snaps arrived it was necessary to put everything through the same machines, so that is how the process and films were designed.

As to macandal's question you are right - all C41 films and processes are compatible, that's what makes them C41. It's a standardised process.

However, not all C41 chemistry is equal. If you buy a kit with blix (combined bleach and fix steps), the bleach will eat the fix and it has very poor shelf-life, which can mean poor quality processing (fails to remove all silver) after your first batch. If you have enough film on-hand to completely exhaust a kit, the Tetenal ones should be great: they supply bleach and fix separately (long shelf life in the store) but they get mixed together for use. If you use it all up in a week, no problems, but don't expect to keep a mixed-up Tetenal kit in the longer term like you can with the 3-bath (Fuji, Kodak, Rollei) kits.

macandal · Dec 18, 2012

Okay, so the place here in San Francisco only carries the Jobo/Tetnal C-41 Press Kit, which Freestyle also carries. So it's Rollei or Tetenal (1L and 5L versions at Freestyle). Should I just go ahead and get the 1L version of tetenal? Thanks.

polyglot · Dec 18, 2012

Sure, get the 1L Tetenal. Just don't mix all the blix up at once; try to mix only enough to process the films you have in a given batch.

If the instructions (and I've never used the Tetenal) allow you an option to mix up the bleach and fix separately, do that. But the chemistry might not allow it; for example some kits have buffering agents in one part that are required for the other part to work properly.

Colin D · Dec 19, 2012

I just developed a sheet of 4x5 Portra 160 using solution I had mixed up a couple of weeks ago then put in a plastic bottle and filled the space with butane gas to keep it fresh and sealed it. Now the film has come out completely blank not a sign of any image at all. My processing times follow the standard recommended widely of 3.15 dev, 5 blix, 2 stab.

I don't know if it is the old solutions that is the problem, or does it sound likel I have inadvertantly tried to develop a blank film? I use the Tetanol Colortec kit.

macandal · Dec 19, 2012

MartinP said:
C41 should be C41.

Ok. Along these lines. I was shopping for paper and I could only find RA-4, is this the only kind of paper there is, or should I try to find C-41 paper. Does that even exist? Thanks.

wogster · Dec 19, 2012

macandal said:
Ok. Along these lines. I was shopping for paper and I could only find RA-4, is this the only kind of paper there is, or should I try to find C-41 paper. Does that even exist? Thanks.

RA4 is the paper process, AFAIK there is not C41 process paper, and there never was.....

macandal · Dec 19, 2012

wogster said:
RA4 is the paper process, AFAIK there is not C41 process paper, and there never was.....

Ok. Thanks. I just thought I'd ask before I bought the "wrong" kind of paper. So, there is no "multigrade" kind of paper like there is in B&W, right? There is only 1 kind?

polyglot · Dec 19, 2012

C41 is the chromogenic negative film process, RA4 is the chromogenic negative paper process. They are a matched pair, i.e. RA4 paper is designed to print C41 negatives.

Obviously that means you need two sets of chemistry. RA4 gear (paper, chems) is really cheap though and the chemistry lasts extremely well.

And no, you don't get contrast control unless you want to change the developer chemistry (add sulfite) or use partial bleaching (google for SLIMT). You used to be able to buy several fixed-grade papers with differing contrasts (eg Kodak sold their Endura range in Portra, Supra and Ultra grades) but now you can basically only buy high-contrast paper. It's annoying if you want lower contrast.

macandal · Dec 28, 2012

Okay. I got my Rollei kit from freestyle.

I was going to go develop my first roll of color but then I got a bit confused. Okay, in b&w I prepared my working solution and kept it in gallon/.5 gallon plastic bottles. Reading the instructions that came with it I'm figuring that you prepare what you're going to use? You don't pre-prepare anything? Is that right? I'm using the 8 oz metal tanks. These equal approximately 250 ml in capacity. If I mix, for example, my developer according to the instructions, I am using half the bottles' contents to get a 250 ml working solution. So, let's say, I use it once, do I dump that after use or do I save it? It doesn't say. If I save it, how many more times do I get to use it? That appears to be the same for all the other solutions. Do I reuse these solutions and if so for how many times? The bleacher, the fixer, the stabilizer, the developer? Are these reusable? As in B&W do I pre mix these solutions in separate containers before or do I do it when I am about to use it? A bit confusing and there's not enough info. I hope someone here can help. Thanks.

Photo Engineer · Dec 28, 2012

You can mix it in small batches using a portion of each part of the solution in question such as Developer, Bleach, Fix or Stab/Final Rinse.

You can use each solution one time and dump or you can use them several times by increasing the development times according to the chart on the Kodak web site. (This is a good exercise for the student! )

I suggest that you use a 1 - 2% Acetic Acid stop after the development step for uniformity, and I suggest a prewet.

Have fun.

PE

macandal · Dec 28, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
You can mix it in small batches using a portion of each part of the solution in question such as Developer, Bleach, Fix or Stab/Final Rinse.

You can use each solution one time and dump or you can use them several times by increasing the development times according to the chart on the Kodak web site. (This is a good exercise for the student! )

I suggest that you use a 1 - 2% Acetic Acid stop after the development step for uniformity, and I suggest a prewet.

Have fun.

PE

PE, thanks. Ok, freestyle advertises this as a 10-roll kit, but if I do one of your suggestions, to use it only once, this is a 2-roll kit!! Their instructions don't say anything about increasing developing times when reusing.

I thought I was done buying my chemicals, but it looks like I need this acetic acid. I'll see if I can get it locally. If not, where can I get it and does it come under any other names?

Thanks.

StoneNYC · Dec 28, 2012

macandal said:
PE, thanks. Ok, freestyle advertises this as a 10-roll kit, but if I do one of your suggestions, to use it only once, this is a 2-roll kit!! Their instructions don't say anything about increasing developing times when reusing.

I thought I was done buying my chemicals, but it looks like I need this acetic acid. I'll see if I can get it locally. If not, where can I get it and does it come under any other names?

Thanks.

Did you get the Arista kit? That has instructions for re-use *goes to basement grumbling something about stairs and cold*

You're right. My JOBO press kit for C-41 doesn't give a calculation either... But my E-6 kit says to increase developing times by 4% (multiply your dev time by 1.04 exponentially each time) so I would assume its very similar in C-41.

PE?

Personally I find it very difficult to measure out the C-41 kits into smaller batches than they are intended, (as in my kit makes a 1 liter bottle of developer and I wouldn't try to separate out smaller batches as its all powder.

The E-61 liquid kits I might, but again once you break the deal, air gets into even the un-mixed concentrate and degrades it.

I've found it's better to just keep exposed rolls in my fridge until I get enough to process out the whole chemistry and do it at once. Otherwise time factors come into play, I ended up destroying an otherwise good roll because I let my E-6 kit sit for a month before using it after mixing.

I just don't shoot enough film for this to make sense, hence why after I kill this JOBO kit, I'm going all B&W ... color chemistry is just too expensive... And doesn't keep long enough for a home user... Or they don't sell it in small bottles for home users, I would gladly spend $100 if they sent me like 10 portions of sealed developer I could then break the seal one at a time and keep the chemistry for a year and only develop 2 rolls at a time and he happy, but they aren't smart enough to do that...

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

bvy · Dec 28, 2012

I have the same Rollei kit from Freestyle. I mix all the chemicals at once. This gives you 500ml of developer which should be good for about ten rolls without having to increase development time (I'm on my 16th roll, but everything past ten is "noncritical" for me). I store the developer in a 500ml PET bottle, squeeze out the air, and keep it refrigerated between sessions. I do not prewet; my understanding was that this dilutes the developer slightly with each development. In that case, maybe increasing development time with each roll does become necessary. The trade-off is that you lose developer; after about five rolls you no longer have enough developer to do 120 in a Paterson tank.

I also go straight to bleach after developing (I'm curious now about PE's stop bath). I do add a rinse after the bleach and fix, which the instructions don't mention.

Photo Engineer · Dec 28, 2012

Geez guys, just go to the Kodak web site and find it! You can do 2 or 3 rolls in the first batch, and then the same in each batch following, but you must increase development times with every batch. There was a LONG thread here on this with the Kodak reference! IDK the times OTOMH. Sorry. BUT - STONE, C41 is not like E6.

PE

StoneNYC · Dec 28, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Geez guys, just go to the Kodak web site and find it! You can do 2 or 3 rolls in the first batch, and then the same in each batch following, but you must increase development times with every batch. There was a LONG thread here on this with the Kodak reference! IDK the times OTOMH. Sorry. BUT - STONE, C41 is not like E6.

PE

*tail between my legs*

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

StoneNYC · Dec 28, 2012

Wait PE one more thing...

It's about oxygen and chemistry

So for example, say I mixed up the full batch of C-41 powder which makes 1 liter. And then put half into a 500ml bottle filled to the brim with only the tinyest air bubble at the top, would that keep for ... 6 months? Or would even that exposure degrade it quickly?

It's frustrating as the kits only come as 500ml or 1000ml or larger which for home use when all you want to do is 2-4 rolls of color film a month... Gets costly as you are wasting a ton of "usable" developer.

What say you?

Even better is there a liquid concentrate that could be sorted into 100ml (or whatever economical ideal size for say no more than 4 rolls of 120 or 2 rolls of 220 or 4 rolls of 135) bottles to be mixed with water as needed?

Same question for E-6 chemistry?

I don't want to give up on color chemistry but I think my ignorance about storage and access to "better than kit" chemistry is my downfall.

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Photo Engineer · Dec 28, 2012

I mix up a 5L kit and it lasts me for months in a sealed bottle with no air. Used, I have kept chemistry for 2 - 3 months and fresh up to 6 months, but the key is NO AIR EXPOSURE.

Actually, I use Nitrogen gas as the 5 L bottle is used, and I store odds and ends in 1L or 1/2L bottles filled to the top.

PE

C-41 processing for neophytes

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency