C-41 processing early 1950s Kodak Kodacolor films

[typicalaussiebloke]

G'day all.

I've recently been shooting unused vintage colour films from the 40s, 50s and 60s and have been cold developing them with my Tetenal C-41 colour kit and have had mixed success, the best result I got was 1958 expired Kodak Ektachrome 120 https://www.flickr.com/photos/51853869@N08/sets/72157644477261449/ and the worst results in terms of colour I got with early 1950s era Kodak Kodacolor films which is the main focus of this thread. Two of my early 50s Kodacolors I developed using the cold C-41 method gave me almost completely blank amber base so I decided to do some test exposures and investigate what was stripping the emulsion. So after some test develops I found that the blix was dissolving the emulsion on the film and so I decided to do a colour develop and fix only instead of blix which successfully gave me pictures but the colour is almost non existent. The developing details are as follows:
Colour develop 6 min at 20 deg C
Wash 3 min
Fix 5 min in Ilford Rapid Fixer
Wash 5 min
Stabilize 1.5 min
With a lot of Photoshop manipulation I was able to bring up some distinct colour in my films though with annoying jpeg compression artifacts due to my crude method of scanning with overhead projector light and mobile phone camera to capture the images. Anyhow here's what I was able to produce with two of my early 50s Kodacolor films Dead Link Removed Dead Link Removed . When I have these films professionally scanned like with my 1958 Ektachrome I will be able bring up better colour pictures.

Anyhow I would like to find a way to bring out rich colours in these old vintage Kodacolor films and I was wondering has anyone here shot early Kodacolor films that old and have successfully colour cross processed them in C-41 and if so I would love to know the developing details. Next time I get a C-41 kit I am intending to keep the bleach and fix separate so I can do them processes separately and see how it goes.

Lastly I actually had more success in processing an even older Kodacolor film that expired in May 1945, I cross processed it in C-41 at 18.5 deg C colour develop, 8 min blix and 1.5 min stabilize and here's what I got https://www.flickr.com/photos/51853869@N08/sets/72157644891640934/ , in some shots there is distinct colour in others I got mostly cyan toned monochrome pictures, I have of course adjusted these photos in Photoshop for best possible colour and picture depth. Interestingly the negatives on this Kodacolor were blue just like that of reversal colour film. I read that prior to C-22 Kodak had three different Kodacolor designs and developing methods between 1942 and 1955.

Cheers
Troy

 

[Rudeofus]

I have no experience with film that is as outdated as yours, but if the BLIX eats your emulsion, you could try hardening it before you BLIX. This can be done with hardener (recipes are easy to find). If you don't want to mix hardener from raw chemicals, you could use a hardening fixer (e.g. Kodak F-5 or F-6 fixer) before you BLIX.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ok, there are several problems here that can be fixed.

Old color films need a hardener fix after the developer and then a long wash. After that, you should use a ferricyanide bleach and then a wash and another hardener fixer. Then wash and stabilize.

You see, the dyes formed in those old films (all of them) were often colorless unless oxidized by a strong bleach. And they were soft. So, at least, you can remedy the lack of dye in the ones already processed by this sequence:

rinse
hardener fix
wash
bleach in ferricyanide + bromide
wash
hardener fix
wash
stabilize

That should fix the ones with poor color to some extent. Put a developer and stop, then wash at the front end for fresh film. Sorry that I can't give exact times, but the C-22 process times should work for the tail end at least.

There is no remedy for the color developer as it is too different.

Had you ever thought that the film might be more valuable unprocessed as collectors items? I've seen them in museums!

PE

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

Thank you for the great valuable info, someone on Flickr told me about you and your excellent work at Kodak and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge on this subject, I will definitely put your suggestions to practice. Excellent to know that despite already fixing and stabilizing those Kodacolor films I can still re-process them for more richer colours!

In regards of these films as collectors pieces I do recognize there is antiquity value to these vintage films, but knowing the fact these films can still work really well with the help of lengthier exposure times I find it more satisfying and a load of fun and an absolute wow factor to breathe new life into these ancient films shooting them and make them work in today's digital world than to leave them sealed up unused as a collector's piece to gradually fetch monetary antiquity value over time. I of course do keep the film boxes and even the foil/plastic packs and re-roll the backing papers back onto the reels and repackage them, nothing gets thrown away. There is actually plenty of old Kodacolor films selling on Ebay so they are not too rare and they sell for around $10 to $50 a pack.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well, I hope my suggestions work out for you. And thanks for the compliment.

I try to do my best for the areas I have knowledge in.

PE

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

Questions on the ferricyanide and bromide, are they both potassium mixed or are on their own? If yes I can easily get potassium ferricyanide and from Vanbar Imaging in Sydney http://www.vanbar.com.au/catalogue/product.php?id=76999 and also potassium bromide http://www.vanbar.com.au/catalogue/product.php?id=95530 .

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes, potassium salts. Use a regular "rehal" bleach. Many formulas are out there and they all work, they just need different times for them to do their job. Make sure the temp is 20C or cooler.

PE

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

Thanks for the info. Now I can get all of the ingredients from Vanbar Imaging but they are sold out of Tetenal Hardener so it's gonna be sometime before I can get all those ingredients together, do I need to re-bleach these already processed Kodacolor films within a certain timeframe after being processed or is there no rush? Down in Australia it's not as easy to get a hold of darkroom supplies as it is over in America, England and Europe.

 

[Photo Engineer]

No specific time frame AFAIK, but don't drag things out too long. I've never tested it beyond a few months.

PE

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

Question about the hardener, can pretty much any hardener be used or is there specific hardener's for colour film? Whilst Vanbar is the main darkroom supplier in Australia there's some darkroom suppliers around catered mainly for B&W photography and they have hardeners in stock and I wonder if a B&W hardener will be just fine for this task?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Chrome Alum or plain Alum hardeners can be used with a good wash afterwards.

PE

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

I have now finally got all the ingredients, the Chrome Alum (100g), the Potassium Ferricyanide (100g) and the Potassium Bromide (100g). I really hope 100g of each substance is enough to do the rolls. Now I need to know the details on making/using the bleach and the hardener before proceeding such as quantity of the substances to the volume of water to be mixed in and also the recommended times for hardening and bleaching and washing? Also can this be all done in light or does it have to be done in darkness? And lastly is there any risk factor this might not work and the film gets destroyed in the process? If so I will have to cut one negative at a time and test.

 

[Xmas]

http://photo.net/black-and-white-photo-film-processing-forum/00KrMI

scroll down to Robert Marvins post

 

[Xmas]

Or

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Photo Engineer]

Be careful to note that C41 used CHROME ALUM which is purple in color. Potassium Alum is white. They are different and do not mix up the formulas for the two. Please be careful on this point!

PE

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

Thanks for letting me know. I have checked the two links, they give some info on making the hardener, reading Robert Marvin's post, it appears I have to add some Sodium Bisulphate, is this necessary or optional? I have disregarded the Potassium Alum formula given. I am still in need of the recommended formula for the Potassium Ferricyanide/Bromide bleach too and bleaching time before I proceed . Also are these mixtures reusable for a few films or are disposed of immediately after use? To be safe I feel I should make a small portion of the two mixtures and cut one exposure off my 1954 Kodacolor 120 roll and test before doing the remainder.

 

[Photo Engineer]

If you use Potassium Alum, the hardener solution takes other chemicals to complete it. If you use the purple Chrome Alum, all you need is a 5 or 10% solution if it in water. It looks like grape juice so keep it away from food and children.

PE

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

Thanks. I'm using Chrome Alum so will mix the appropriate portion of it with water as you've instructed. Now I just need to know how much Potassium Ferricyanide and Potassium Bromide I need to make say 1 litre of bleach and then I can proceed.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Use any posted rehal Ferri/Br bleach.

PE

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

Done a search in this forum on rehal bleach formulas using those two ingredients, found some given formulas in John Shriver's C-22 thread (there was a url link here which no longer exists) and this thread (there was a url link here which no longer exists) . I am thinking on using this one from the 2nd thread link:
Water 900 ml
Potassium ferricyanide 40 g
Sodium bromide 25 g
Water to make 1L
But with the Potassium Bromide instead of Sodium Bromide which according to the post should be 30g. So is that formula good for the task? And what do you recommended for bleaching time at 20 deg C (68 deg F) temperature?

And lastly can the bleach be recycled for other films or is it a one off then dispose?

 

[Photo Engineer]

You make substitutions of KBr for NaBr and vice versa based on their molecular weights. But, using them interchangeably at the same weight will only affect bleach rate.

The bleach can be reused several times. IDK OTOMH the correct bleach times but the process goes to completion so it is difficult to overbleach. Look up an old C-22 process sheet and use those times, but add a bit. And, if it is underbleached, you can always redo the bleach, wash, fix, wash and stab. steps with no harm.

PE

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

Thanks. I have downloaded a C-22 process sheet and it says 6 min bleach time, I will bleach for 8 min. Anyways am pretty much ready to go now!

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

I have now hardened/bleached my 1954 Kodacolor 120 film going by the given sequence using C-22 process times:
Rinse 4 min
Harden 4 min
Wash 4 min
Bleach 8 min
Wash 4 min
Harden 8 min
Wash 8 min
Stabilize 1.5 min
Done at around 17/18 deg C

The results unfortunately are very disappointing . The picture's depth of contrast is now lost and the picture is barely visible, on the other hand it appears I can see a bit more colour but the images are not going to scan too well. The negative looks quite similar to the other 1954 Kodacolor 120 that I blixed and got ultra faded negatives. I have attached a couple of photos showing the film before when it was colour developed and fixed with a B&W fixer and after being bleached and hardened. For the bleach I used 40g Ferricyanide and 30g Bromide to make 1L and for the Chrome Alum hardner it was 100g in water to make 1L. I really wonder where I went wrong and I know this is probably wishful thinking but is there any way I can bring the depth of contrast back?

I have to say with the generations from the early Kodacolor films up to Kodacolor X, the best results I got is with first C-22 process Kodacolor (1956-1963) I can run those through my C-41 kit and blix and get beautiful rich colour negatives and have recently shot a 1957 expired Kodacolor 116 and I got beautiful colours!!! (see attached pic) Surprisingly Kodacolor X also gives me rather faded colour negatives as well but not as bad as the early 50s Kodacolors. The 1945 Kodacolor I processed in C-41 gave me mostly blue/cyan pictures but some distinct colours came up good in some of the shots.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Please see my post #3. You need a hardening fix in there, otherwise the images will discolor due to retained Silver Halide.

I would love to see the picture.

PE

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

Hardener fix, I was actually confused by that but ended up thinking the Chrome Alum hardener was the hardener and fixer, so do I need to mix a fixer with the Chrome Alum hardener or follow up the hardener with a fixer? Forgive my lack of understanding but I only began film and developing last year and have picked up quickly on a lot of things via the web (most particularly Flickr) and through trial and error as seen but there's a lot I still don't know and get confused on. Also if I'm correct with my question do I then redo that 1954 Kodacolor film again?

Also am curious are you referring to my 1957 Kodacolor as in it needs to be Chrome Alum hardened after the C-41 colour develop/blix/stabilize sequence? If yes then I will be needing to do that with all my early Kodacolor and I guess Ektachrome and Ektacolor films. That Kodacolor film is on my Flickr site Dead Link Removed unfortunately I don't have an expensive film scanner so have only done a crude scan of it.