C-41 processing early 1950s Kodak Kodacolor films

[Photo Engineer]

Well, there are several points of misunderstanding here. One is that there is a Chrome Alum Hardener Fix. There is not. You must use a standard Acid Hardener Fix with Sodium or Potassium Alum (Aluminum Sulfate). This fixer is commonly known as Kodak Rapid Liquid Fixer with Hardener. Ilford and many others make the same chemical mix. It must be used to remove the Silver Halide from the film which was formed by the rehal bleach. You know what retained Silver Halide does? It turns brown or black with keeping.

The next problem is that pre C41, a blix could not be used with films or papers. You see, dye formation relied, in part, on the Ferricyanide step and without it there would be very poor images.

I hope this helps a bit. You are jumping into the deep end. Good luck.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Chrome makes birth defects at your next child , be very careful.

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

Well, there are several points of misunderstanding here. One is that there is a Chrome Alum Hardener Fix. There is not. You must use a standard Acid Hardener Fix with Sodium or Potassium Alum (Aluminum Sulfate). This fixer is commonly known as Kodak Rapid Liquid Fixer with Hardener. Ilford and many others make the same chemical mix. It must be used to remove the Silver Halide from the film which was formed by the rehal bleach. You know what retained Silver Halide does? It turns brown or black with keeping.

The next problem is that pre C41, a blix could not be used with films or papers. You see, dye formation relied, in part, on the Ferricyanide step and without it there would be very poor images.

I hope this helps a bit. You are jumping into the deep end. Good luck.

PE

But in an earlier post you said Chrome Alum hardeners can be used (there was a url link here which no longer exists) . I would of bought the Sodium/Potassium Alum otherwise. Seeing I used Chrome Alum as the hardener now do I need to use a separate fixer as I have Ilford Rapid Fixer at hand? But if I wasn't suppose to use Chrome Alum then why did you recommended it earlier? I will now of course order that Kodak Rapid Liquid Fixer.

So now I am guessing my colour films are going to over time progressively discolour/deteriorate. I suppose if I can't fix them in any way I will have to get them professionally scanned while they are still okay. I will read up on retained silver halide too later today.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well, as I said, you are jumping into the deep end. There were two distinct hardeners used in C22. They are both described in the manuals and literature. This work is made clearer in the E2 and E3 processes IMHO, but there it is. Kodak used 2 types of hardening solutions, one to harden the film alone and one to harden and fix, simply because the two chemicals could not be used in the same way. Chrome Alum cannot be used in a fix.

Then, when Chrome was banned in so many countries they went to either an incorporated hardener or in the case of E4, a prehardener of Glutaraldehyde or Succinaldehyde.

You see how complex this can get? And, I am truly sorry. I have oversimplified in some cases by making assumptions about what your knowledge / skill level is and what you are reading and relying on.

My apologies.

OH, and you can rebleach, wash, fix, wash and stabilize this film with no problem as long as you don't use a blix.

PE

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

No worries. As much as it gets complicated requiring more chemicals and steps, as long as the chemicals are available and the instructions are clear and precise and I have the appropriate equipment at hand I can do it, but if the instructions are not clear enough for me I will misinterpret things.

To be honest a few months ago I never thought I'd be developing vintage colour film, but in one batch of films I bought off Ebay I got an unused early 60s Kodacolor 120 film and I wondered if I can make it work and then on Flickr I saw some people successfully making colour pictures on 60s colour films like Ektacolor https://www.flickr.com/photos/werra/8259109708 , Ektachrome https://www.flickr.com/photos/bestbefore1978/5059285395 , Kodacolor X https://www.flickr.com/photos/60414730@N03/6802748553/ and Agfacolor https://www.flickr.com/photos/werra/9604867403 films using their C-41 kits and processing at cold temperatures for longer periods so that kickstarted things for me in that area and I followed suit to their methods and blindly hope it will work, and for that particular Kodacolor film this is what I got Dead Link Removed . So that's where I picked up my knowledge in cross processing old colour films and also for shooting them with increased exposure times to compensate for age film sensitivity loss. I also am aware of this site on the history of Kodak colour film processes http://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Colour_Darkroom/Early_Kodak.html and have corresponded with the author Michael Talbert asking questions before joining this forum. Also before I got into vintage colour I started with vintage B&W film and pretty much develop all of them in Caffenol C and fix in Ilford Rapid Fixer as to my own opinion and to my own eyes works great even for films I've shot made in the 1930s plus the ingredients are cheap and easy to get! It's a bit off the main topic here but what is your opinion on the use of Caffenol C with vintage B&W film opposed to commercial developers like D-76, HC110 etc. will those films deteriorate quicker than if done in commercial developers?

Anyhow I am going to source the C-22 and E2/E3 literature and read through so I have a clearer understanding of what chemicals are used. I have on me a downloaded scanned C-22 instruction list (see image below), I am thinking of from now on using that method after the colour develop stage for my C-22 films, seeing it doesn't have "harden fix" can I use Chrome Alum for just hardening the film before wash and Ferri/Br bleach and then use Ilford Rapid Fixer for just fixing the film after bleaching and washing? If yes and my films are guaranteed colour/image stability and longevity with that opposed to blix then I will stick to that method as I do want the best for my films. For the rebleach process I am going to now order the appropriate chemicals for the hardener fix.

The film I can rebleach/wash/fix/wash/stabilize are you referring to my 1957 Kodacolor 116 or my 1954 Kodacolor 120? The 1957 one that's already blixed when I developed it and also all of my other vintage 50s/60s Kodacolor/Kodacolor X/Etachrome colour films as well and my 1945 Kodacolor.

Lastly if I can't completely preserve some my colour films I can at least have them professionally scanned and can colour correct by digital means, I am pretty much a hybrid analog/digital process person with my film photography.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ok, Step 3 is "probably" chrome alum. Step 7 is "probably" an acid alum hardening fix. Two different hardening agents that Kodak just did not disclose.

The big problem is using a blix. A blix will not complete the dye forming reaction that the Ferricyanide bleach will and thus dyes will be low in saturation.

PE

 

[typicalaussiebloke]

Ok, Step 3 is "probably" chrome alum. Step 7 is "probably" an acid alum hardening fix. Two different hardening agents that Kodak just did not disclose.

The big problem is using a blix. A blix will not complete the dye forming reaction that the Ferricyanide bleach will and thus dyes will be low in saturation.

PE

Hey just letting you know I have sent you a private message in relation to this thread.