C-41 Development weird streaks. Is this bromide drag and if so how to fix it.

ludwighagelstein · Sep 16, 2018

Important facts at a glance:

Film: 35mm Portra 400 shot at 400
Dev: Tetenal Colortech C-41 at 38° (Temperature constant at about 37.9 to 38.2, I measured at the beginning and the end)
Dev Time: 3:15m (1st film in fresh developer)
Agitation: Continuos motorized rotation in vertical position (Maybe too slow) in a Patterson Tank

Does anyone have an idea what could cause these streaks ? I think its bromide drag, but I´m not sure.

Many other images from the same roll of film came out ok.

WilmarcoImaging · Sep 16, 2018

Hello and welcome ludwighagelstein. Nice image.

Do you have a photo of the negative, using a phone camera? Can you describe or post a photo of the equipment used for vertical rotation? It does not sound like Jobo, is this correct? What equipment was used for scanning?

It looks to me like either a chemical mark, or the film was not flat during scanning. If it was a chemical mark, it could have been made if the chemical was not poured smoothly enough or quickly enough. If the film is not flat in scanning, lots of defects can happen.

ludwighagelstein · Sep 16, 2018

Thanks for the reply. The Film was flat in an enlarger negative carrier (Kaiser System V) and was digitized with a 5D 2 and 100mm 2.8L macro and a repro stand. Lightsource is 5000K calibrated. I'm not new to developing and analogue workflows. Only this phenomenon is new to me, especially it isnt affecting the whole Film. The negative looks OK, No lightleaks whatsoever PP. With a Loupe density variations can be Seen though. Everything apart from the development can ne ruled out.

WilmarcoImaging · Sep 16, 2018

Thanks ludwighagelstein. My experience with bromine drag is strictly with black and white film, strictly when almost zero agitation is used.

If you see density variations, they likely were made during development. Another possibility is the film is bent or folded (creased).

Photo Engineer · Sep 16, 2018

Can you scan the film including the sprocket holes of that frame and the frames on each side? This would help.

PE

ludwighagelstein · Sep 16, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Can you scan the film including the sprocket holes of that frame and the frames on each side? This would help.

PE

I'll scan and upload the whole negative tomorrow, but it looks fine.

ludwighagelstein · Sep 17, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Can you scan the film including the sprocket holes of that frame and the frames on each side? This would help.

PE

Here you go. I hope its sufficient to see what might have happened here. The positive is absolutely not corrected in any way and is a flat inversion of the negative.

ludwighagelstein · Sep 17, 2018

WilmarcoImaging said:
Hello and welcome ludwighagelstein. Nice image.

Do you have a photo of the negative, using a phone camera? Can you describe or post a photo of the equipment used for vertical rotation? It does not sound like Jobo, is this correct? What equipment was used for scanning?

It looks to me like either a chemical mark, or the film was not flat during scanning. If it was a chemical mark, it could have been made if the chemical was not poured smoothly enough or quickly enough. If the film is not flat in scanning, lots of defects can happen.

Regarding your question about the "processor": I built myself a little contraption - i think contraption is the right word for it. It consits of a wooden stand with a hole sized to accomodate and hold a standard patterson tank so it can be lowered into the tempered water through said hole and a 20€ Black und Decker onehand electric screwdriver that rotates the spools inside the tank continuously.

.

mshchem · Sep 17, 2018

ludwighagelstein said:
Regarding your question about the "processor": I uilt myself a little contraption - i think contraption is the right word for it. It consits of a wooden stand with a hole sized to accomodate and hold a standard patterson tank so it can be lowered into the tempered waer through said hole and a 20€ Black und Decker onehand electric screwdriver

.View attachment 208199

That's crazy fun Wait for people to recommend 15 seconds forward, 15 seconds reverse. With fresh developer in a full Paterson tank with that much agitation hard to believe it's bromide drag? It looks like bromide drag.??

jimjm · Sep 17, 2018

I was thinking film creases at first, but the film outside the frame looks fine. Possibly a piece of lint or some fibers that were protruding into the film gate during this shot?

ludwighagelstein · Sep 17, 2018

jimjm said:
I was thinking film creases at first, but the film outside the frame looks fine. Possibly a piece of lint or some fibers that were protruding into the film gate during this shot?

No, it is persistent throughout the whole roll, on about 50% of the frames, exclusively in the highlights. Thats the thing. It is definitely a chemical issue, but I don´t know which one. Bromide drag seems obvious, but the agitation should have been more than sufficient to avoid such issues. The film looks impeccable, is absolutely flat, has no knuckles. I take great care in my processing, even with the rudimentary processing equipment I use I´m able to keep the temperature constant within a 0.2 to 0.3 °C margin along with constant rotary agitation. The chemistry was fresh. I don´t know what could have caused this issue.

ludwighagelstein · Sep 17, 2018

jimjm said:
I was thinking film creases at first, but the film outside the frame looks fine. Possibly a piece of lint or some fibers that were protruding into the film gate during this shot?

as you can see, the negative is clean, dust, and knuckle free as it uniformly reflects the flash at a 45° angle almost like a mirror.

glbeas · Sep 17, 2018

ludwighagelstein said:
No, it is persistent throughout the whole roll, on about 50% of the frames, exclusively in the highlights. Thats the thing. It is definitely a chemical issue, but I don´t know which one. Bromide drag seems obvious, but the agitation should have been more than sufficient to avoid such issues. The film looks impeccable, is absolutely flat, has no knuckles. I take great care in my processing, even with the rudimentary processing equipment I use I´m able to keep the temperature constant within a 0.2 to 0.3 °C margin along with constant rotary agitation. The chemistry was fresh. I don´t know what could have caused this issue.

I think he is referring to lint in the camera body. Best way to check that it take the lens off set the shutter on b and open the back. Holding the shutter open will allow you to examine the inside for anything odd.
If it is in the processing it would have to be a standing wave of turbulence enhanced by rotation in one direction all the time. How fast does the drill turn the reel? Too high a speed may play in to the problem as well.

ludwighagelstein · Sep 17, 2018

glbeas said:
I think he is referring to lint in the camera body. Best way to check that it take the lens off set the shutter on b and open the back. Holding the shutter open will allow you to examine the inside for anything odd.
If it is in the processing it would have to be a standing wave of turbulence enhanced by rotation in one direction all the time. How fast does the drill turn the reel? Too high a speed may play in to the problem as well.

I can´t confirm the lint thing, as I didn´t take the photographs, but merely developed the film for a friend, which makes the whole affair even worse. But I think the camera was clean, as the black and white film which I developed manually came out without any streaks. But the standing wave could be a possibility, since the drill only turns in one direction at the speed you can see in the gif. Said friend is currently working on modifying my drill to make the speed adjustable. Do you think a slower speed would redeem the problem, or would you suggest, that an intermittent clockwise, counterclockwise rotation is neccessary, because that would be rather tricky to achieve, I guesss.

mshchem · Sep 17, 2018

I have a Jobo Duolab. It's a one way only direction, never had a problem with bromide drag with reel film. It's definitely a issue with sheet film. I found a legitimate defect in a roll of Fuji Provia-F when I ran a batch of E6 this weekend. First time ever with 35mm film in 50 years. I was shocked. I would try changing something. Don't give up on your system, it should work fine . How about black and white? Weird .

mshchem · Sep 17, 2018

ludwighagelstein said:
I can´t confirm the lint thing, as I didn´t take the photographs, but merely developed the film for a friend, which makes the whole affair even worse. But I think the camera was clean, as the black and white film which I developed manually came out without any streaks. But the standing wave could be a possibility, since the drill only turns in one direction at the speed you can see in the gif. Said friend is currently working on modifying my drill to make the speed adjustable. Do you think a slower speed would redeem the problem, or would you suggest, that an intermittent clockwise, counterclockwise rotation is neccessary, because that would be rather tricky to achieve, I guesss.

One thing to consider is agitating once every 30 seconds for 5 seconds. That would reduce the need for computational fluid dynamics

ludwighagelstein · Sep 17, 2018

mshchem said:
One thing to consider is agitating once every 30 seconds for 5 seconds. That would reduce the need for computational fluid dynamics

The Tetenal instruction sheet suggests constant agitation though.

Sirius Glass · Sep 17, 2018

ludwighagelstein said:
I can´t confirm the lint thing, as I didn´t take the photographs, but merely developed the film for a friend, which makes the whole affair even worse. But I think the camera was clean, as the black and white film which I developed manually came out without any streaks. But the standing wave could be a possibility, since the drill only turns in one direction at the speed you can see in the gif. Said friend is currently working on modifying my drill to make the speed adjustable. Do you think a slower speed would redeem the problem, or would you suggest, that an intermittent clockwise, counterclockwise rotation is neccessary, because that would be rather tricky to achieve, I guesss.

Then have your friend join Photrio and pose the questions himself. Then if he chooses to supply the details and thus enabling a conclusion to be reached.

ludwighagelstein · Sep 17, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Then have your friend join Photrio and pose the questions himself. Then if he chooses to supply the details and thus enabling a conclusion to be reached.

As i stated above, the Issue most likely lies within my darkroom. Otherwise the black and white film he shot immediately after the portra would most likely have the same marks, if the problem were lint or something compareable. It is highly unlikely that the issue is not a photochemical one.

glbeas · Sep 17, 2018

Arent electric screwdrivers supposed to be reversable? Check that thing, there should be a switch for direction on it somewhere.

ludwighagelstein · Sep 17, 2018

glbeas said:
Arent electric screwdrivers supposed to be reversable? Check that thing, there should be a switch for direction on it somewhere.

in fact it is reversable, but isn´t the purpose of "hands free" developing to let thing stand on its own and do its deed ? If I had to inverse it manually every 15 seconds I could go back to agitatiting manually

Photo Engineer · Sep 17, 2018

Thanks for the photo. It looks like and unlike bromide drag. Given your method of agitation, the streaks should be at an angle to account for the constant unidirectional agitation. Actually, bromide drag usually is found when there is insufficient agitation but in the rare cases where it is due to too much it appers at a slight angle. Also, it appears more often than just a few places on a negative. It looks more like a process problem involving good stop in the step after development.

However, all of that being said, your agitation method is not recommended.

Sorry I can't make a better call.

PE

mshchem · Sep 17, 2018

To PE's point Tetenal recommends a stop bath to protect the blix. I agree the streaks seem to be running in the wrong direction if it was due to your spin agitation. Tetenal recommends increasing rotation speed for streaks. This is "Jobo" speed, which is much slower than your setup.

I would shoot some more film try repeating the fault, and try using stop bath. Tetenal recommends (if I recall correctly ) up to 16 minute blix times with the powder kits to get maximum use. Try a stop bath. Fuji and Kodak still use separate bleach and fixer. Every commercial lab, minilab, etc. use separate bleach and fixer.

Try stop bath.

ludwighagelstein · Sep 17, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
Thanks for the photo. It looks like and unlike bromide drag. Given your method of agitation, the streaks should be at an angle to account for the constant unidirectional agitation. Actually, bromide drag usually is found when there is insufficient agitation but in the rare cases where it is due to too much it appers at a slight angle. Also, it appears more often than just a few places on a negative. It looks more like a process problem involving good stop in the step after development.

However, all of that being said, your agitation method is not recommended.

Sorry I can't make a better call.

PE

would a minute or so bidirectional agitation before the unidirectional agitation for the rest of the development bring any advantage ? This does look more like the "symptomatic" bromide drag you worte of, doesn´t it ?

Photo Engineer · Sep 17, 2018

The second sample does indeed look like bromide drag, but it is still not assured. It can be a stop problem which induces flow related marks or it could be bad bleaching or fixing due to the rotational agitation. Not sure. Generally, you see a mild "halo" around the sprocket holes that accompany the streaks.

PE

C-41 Development weird streaks. Is this bromide drag and if so how to fix it.

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