Buying my first lens for 4x5

[bonk]

I would like to buy my first lens for my 4x5 camera (Chamonix C45F-2). I want it to be somewhere around 180mm (which should be 50 in 35mm equiv.) and it should be a „no-compromise“ lens in terms of quality and speed even if that would mean it is a bit pricier - within reason. I don’t need rare, much sought-after, legendary lens, I want a reliable, high quality „work horse“ that will join me on my photographic journeys for the rest of my life.

 

[Don_ih]

The Ektar 127mm, often found in Kodak View cameras, was a basically perfect lens, from what I can tell. Wider than 180 but not "wide".

 

[BradS]

any of these in the latest, black dial Copal shutter fit your description....

Schneider APO Symmar
Rodenstock Sironar-S
Rodenstock Sironar-N (latest model with white stripe)
Fuji Fujinon CM/W
Nikon Nikkor-W

However, don't completely dismiss slightly older optics. Condition is very important. Much more important than make, model and brand.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I would like to buy my first lens for my 4x5 camera (Chamonix C45F-2). I want it to be somewhere around 180mm (which should be 50 in 35mm equiv.) and it should be a „no-compromise“ lens in terms of quality and speed even if that would mean it is a bit pricier - within reason. I don’t need rare, much sought-after, legendary lens, I want a reliable, high quality „work horse“ that will join me on my photographic journeys for the rest of my life.

I would look into the Nikon line of large-format lenses.

 

[BradS]

I will add that most modern (last 30 to 40 years!) large format optics are so good that it is really not gonna make any difference at all which one you use. The condition of the individual specimen will have a much bigger effect than the brand and model. I have an old (ca. 1950), very pedestrian Optar lens in excellent condition on a Graflex Crown Graphic that makes absolutely beautiful photos.

Also, make damned sure to get a modern Copal or Compur shutter that is in excellent condition. Shutters can be cleaned and serviced but few are really repairable anymore.

 

[bonk]

make damned sure to get a modern Copal or Compur shutter

How can I tell whether it is a modern or an old Copal or Compur shutter?

 

[BradS]

How can I tell whether it is a modern or an old Copal or Compur shutter?

The modern Copal has a black dial. The older ones are chrome. Same for compur. Many of the older ones are perfectly fine but if you have a choice, give strong preference to newer, working properly, not been “serviced” by some idiot DiYer with a set of jeweler's screwdrivers and a can of lighter fluid.

 

[Luis-F-S]

I basically agree with Brad. For no compromise, top performance, non weirdo or old strange cult stuff, it is quite simple. Stick with the last offerings of each of the “big 4”. They are all equivalently excellent.

Nikkor W
Rodenstock Apo Sironar S
Schneider Apo Symmar L
Fuji
.

I’d get a 210 not a 180 from one of the big 4 above. It ain’t 35mm ! My first two lenses were a 210 and a 120. Used them for years.

 

[voceumana]

My first 4x6 was a Calumet CC-400, and it came with a Rodenstock Sironar 180mm f/5.6. I never had any complaints about that lens, and it gave an image circle big enough for generous movements.

Also, consider that Calumet sold some Rodenstock lenses under the Caltar name (esp. the Caltar-II lenses) and they are the same as their Rodenstock equivalents at a lower price.

You cannot go wrong with Rodenstock, Nikon, Schneider, or Fuji LF lenses in Copal shutters as long as the lens and shutter are in good condition.

As to focal lengths, 180 to 210 is a fine starting range with generous image circles for most designs; between 135 and 165, you have to be careful of the image circle if you need movements--for example, I have a 135mm Rodenstock (as a Caltar II) with an image circle just slightly larger than needed for 4x5--OK with very minmal movements, but not for large ones.

Most 90 to 125mm lenses also have decent image circle sizes.

Note: you might look at some of the Commercial Congo lenses by Yamasaki--they are 4 element lens designs (like the Kodak Commercial Ektar) and are good performers at a lower cost. They use Copal Shutters, and are a little more compact than the 6-element designs like the Sironar, Symmar, etc.

 

[eli griggs]

Try the 127 Ektar in a new shutter, just to see if it gives the type of wide view you want, and after some experience, invest in other lenses.

Do no rule out barrel lenses paired with older shutter types.

I know, sometimes, we all tend to think all our shoots will lead to a 'Master' print, if no simply "great shots", but even Master Prints are made with some of the oddest combos and a set of good, older lenses and tech., often give unexpected but, great quality results.

Go old, go slow and work it out from their, including film, developer, shading and filters.

Godspeed and Good Health to All,
Eli

 

[BrianShaw]

Unless you are very old or have some sort of terminal disease, suggest taking “for the rest of my life.” out of the equation.

Get first a good-condition lens that fits your photographic vision. Your photographic vision may change over time or it may not. I still have my first lenses... bought new in 1982... and still use them occasionally. A couple of older lenses bought relatively recently now get more use. Things change while other things stay the same.

But above all, focus on getting equipment that will help you take the pictures you want to take.

 

[removed account4]

im in the camp that any lens is a good lens.. so I don't have any suggestions other than ... make sure no matter what you get you send it off for a C L A at a repair shop that works on LF shutters... CLA is worth its weight in gold.

have fun !

 

[BrianShaw]

P.S. get a 150 first. Or a bit wider, 135. Likely to be easier to find and more affordable than a 180.

 

[BradS]

I'd say that in general, it is very smart to buy the newest and best you can afford and stay with it, especially when starting out. It is very easy to waste a lot of time, money and film trying out old lenses...but if your budget doesn't allow for the latest and greatest, don't completely rule out slightly older lenses if in good condition and in a GOOD WORKING shutter. Anything in the 135mm to 210mm range is a good focal length to start with...but if you want to use camera movements the shorter focal lengths can cause frustrations...which is why many start with 180mm or 210mm on 4x5.

4x5 Crown Graphic, handheld ,RF focused
135mm f/4.5 Graflex Optar (ca. 1951)
Kodak Tri-X 320TXP, D-76 (1+1)


Ebony RW45
Kodak 127mm Ektar (ca. 1947), tiny bit of front rise
Fuji Provia RDP-III


Ebony RW45
Schneider 135mm Symmar-S (ca. 1980' ?) - lots of front rise
Ilford Delta 100, Aculx 2

 

[BradS]

I used to teach an intro to large format photography to local high school kids and any of their parents that were interested. Although I've sold much of the gear that I used for teaching, I'd be happy to give you an into and let you try out the gear that I still have...cameras, lenses, film holders, light meters etc...

 

[Michael Firstlight]

I agree with BrianShaw - go with a 150mm lens first - more versatile as a 'normal' lens for 4x5. I went with a Rodenstock APO Sironar-S 150mm 5.6 which is equivalent to 38mm on a 35mm camera - incredible optics, no compromise, top performing lens. It's one lens that will show up at or near the top of every list of HQ 150mm lenses that experienced folks here will include in their lists. I think I paid around $800 for a flawless copy about 2 years ago, but shocked to now see the current 'recently sold' prices on eBay for a similar one in such condition. I can only imagine these stellar lenses will only continue to go up in value as many who are returning to film or upgrading are shunning 35mm film and going to MF or LF film. They just don't make these lenses anymore - so your investment will likely always be recouped and then some - but I'll never part with mine and many other won't either - and that's where the endless inflation stems from. If can afford it, buy once and buy best.

Here's a good chart to compare lenses with which many here are quite familiar: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html Pay attention to image circle as well for maximum movements, but as it goes, top optics + maximum image circle typically are most costly.

MFL

 

[Bob S]

any of these in the latest, black dial Copal shutter fit your description....

Schneider APO Symmar
Rodenstock Sironar-S
Rodenstock Sironar-N (latest model with white stripe)
Fuji Fujinon CM/W
Nikon Nikkor-W

However, don't completely dismiss slightly older optics. Condition is very important. Much more important than make, model and brand.

Why do people continue to use incomplete names when making suggestions? There has never been a “Sironar-S”. It an Apo Sironar-S!

 

[BradS]

Why do people continue to use incomplete names when making suggestions? There has never been a “Sironar-S”. It an Apo Sironar-S!

We're not retired salesmen. We're photographers.

 

[Bob S]

I would like to buy my first lens for my 4x5 camera (Chamonix C45F-2). I want it to be somewhere around 180mm (which should be 50 in 35mm equiv.) and it should be a „no-compromise“ lens in terms of quality and speed even if that would mean it is a bit pricier - within reason. I don’t need rare, much sought-after, legendary lens, I want a reliable, high quality „work horse“ that will join me on my photographic journeys for the rest of my life.

Bear in mind, 35mm and 45 are totally different proportions, so are you comparing horizontal field of angle or something else? 150 is a normal length for 45. 180 is a normal for 57.

 

[Bob S]

We're not retired salesmen. We're photographers.

It’s always better to be a properly informed photographer. Then your advice is logical.

 

[Vaughn]

We're not retired salesmen. We're photographers.

A laughing +1 for that...

A 180 would be a nice focal length -- we used them on our university cameras as an all-around lens. The increased coverage is nice for when playing around with camera movements...a reason why I do not recommend the average 135mm as a first and only lens. I personally stuck with a 150mm for 4x5.

If you can find a Caltar IIN, it will be the exact lens one of the big guys make (Rodenstock) -- just rebranded. That will save you a few bucks...my 4x5 lens is a Caltar IIN 150/5.6.

 

[grat]

Why do people continue to use incomplete names when making suggestions? There has never been a “Sironar-S”. It an Apo Sironar-S!

Because by your own statement, "Sironar-S" is a perfectly valid search string that won't result in multiple options. Therefore it is valid, if short.

 

[grat]

A laughing +1 for that...

A 180 would be a nice focal length -- we used them on our university cameras as an all-around lens. The increased coverage is nice for when playing around with camera movements...a reason why I do not recommend the average 135mm as a first and only lens. I personally stuck with a 150mm for 4x5.

If you can find a Caltar IIN, it will be the exact lens one of the big guys make (Rodenstock) -- just rebranded. That will save you a few bucks...my 4x5 lens is a Caltar IIN 150/5.6.

Side note, and taking Bob's point into account, there is also the Calumet Caltar-S II, which is actually a Schneider-Krueznach Symar-S. Not to be confused with the Caltar-II S, which is a also a Rodenstock.

 

[Vaughn]

Sorry -- should have mentioned that the Cartar IIN was their latest lens series

 

[138S]

I would like to buy my first lens for my 4x5 camera (Chamonix C45F-2). I want it to be somewhere around 180mm (which should be 50 in 35mm equiv.) and it should be a „no-compromise“ lens in terms of quality and speed even if that would mean it is a bit pricier - within reason. I don’t need rare, much sought-after, legendary lens, I want a reliable, high quality „work horse“ that will join me on my photographic journeys for the rest of my life.

I'd prefer a Symmar S, a Srironar N or a Nikon W or a Fujinon CM-W. Multicoated but not latest APO models, made around early 1980's. IMO this would give a top performance vs cost.

Being your first lens a choice would be a single coated Symmar convertible, it would be cheap, you have two focals, but the secondary 315mm one has some limitations, min aperture is f/12 and corners are a bit soft until well stopped, still the 315mm conversion would be an excellent portraiture lens, that would be equivalent to around 105mm for portraiture.

If you plan to try some (head and shoulders) portraiture that convertible would be a choice, the conversion may require a compendium shade to keep constrast low.

See those offers:



You may get a Convertible lens with shutter and pair of Symmar S cells for the half an APO version may cost.


The APO Symmar version is quite expensive, but I frankly doubt that the APO Symmar version is much optically better than the bare Symmar S version. LF lenses were APO before APO commercial letering was stamped in the lenses, for example the APO Sironar N was mostly the same design than the non APO stamped, with time the "APO" version received some minor incremental refinements that made them slightly better in average, but sure many Non APO stamped Sironar N lenses are better than many APO stamped, as in production some variability happens in the peak performance, anyway this is very, very dificult to be noticed in practice.

Sironars and others may have a shim to adjust the inter-cell optimal distance for each particular lens. With used lenses it may happen that those shims are lost or wrong ones are in place, some sellers around may assembele a lens from to broken lenses, not the general case but it may happen.

An important factor is shutter, take one that it is in shape, and ideally get a (cheap) shutter tester to check speeds, in special if you are to shot slides.

If you can find a Caltar IIN, it will be the exact lens one of the big guys make (Rodenstock) -- just rebranded. That will save you a few bucks...my 4x5 lens is a Caltar IIN 150/5.6.

A Caltar can be perfect, but lenses were eveluated before shipped to a commercial destination. A question is if different crops of different quality were stamped differently, Technika and Sinar stamped glass passed additional QC of suposed higher standards, and it's quite difficult to find a Technika stamped dog glass. Caltar stamped glass had better discounts than Rodenstock or the german camera stamps... some difference may be there... Who knows?

Still, IMO it would be hard to see the difference outside an optical lab.