Burned by the 'bay

[BrianShaw]

One has to also factor in the low price and the age of the gear, no? That kit has to be 50 years old. "Excellent condition" is sales talk.... Barely worth the electrons the words are written with.

Fortunately those words can also be used to justify a return and refund even if that is a bit of an inconvenient situation.

Well the sellers ad states "The entire set is in great condition." And, they are in the camera selling business so can be considered experts. I would be upset also.

 

[LMNOP]

One has to also factor in the low price and the age of the gear, no? That kit has to be 50 years old. "Excellent condition" is sales talk.... Barely worth the electrons the words are written with.

Fortunately those words can also be used to justify a return and refund even if that is a bit of an inconvenient situation.

I am sort of on the fence about returning. If it is light tight, maybe APUG user 19 has a point, just keep it. There are some drawbacks but it mate be worth test shooting. I wish this were more like a MF camera, I have never handled sheet film so this whole thing is a learning experience. My final hope is that I can remove dirt from film holders. When the dark slide comes in and out I can feel the grit.

 

[LMNOP]

Check immediately that the bellows is light tight. This is a deal breaker.

Okay, basic test:

bellows fully extended, dark room, led flash light through the back with the shutter closed, not light leaks. When I open the shutter a beam of light comes out and it appears to escape nowhere else. The inside of the glass looks like this...

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

That outfit, if in truly excellent condition... bellows tested supple and light-tight (guaranteed)... all seven film holders tested straight and light-tight (guaranteed)... the lens/shutter serviced, tested, clean, sharp and shutter accurate (guaranteed)... could easily bring $300 or more plus shipping on eBay. Of course, those are 'guaranteed' conditions. You can send it back if you like... my guess is you won't be happy unless it goes back. So just send it back.

 

[Fixcinater]

Return it or ship it to a professional for a full rebuild/check through. Sheet film gets expensive fast, especially when your equipment is ruining sheets as fast as you are while climbing the learning curve.

No offense intended here but you don't seem like the type to accept anything less than excellence in appearance- and well maintained-gear so why give yourself the heartache?

Buy local so you can see/touch it, spend a little more so you aren't scraping the bottom of the barrel and get yourself a nice kit. "Do it once, do it right" comes to mind.

 

[Barry S]

If the camera is in good useable shape after a cleaning, I'd send the lens in for a CLA and get some better holders. You paid a bargain basement price and it's perfectly normal for a vintage lens to need a CLA. Those Ilex Caltars are *nice* lenses and absolutely worth a CLA. Figure out if the tripod mount issue is a real problem.

 

[Sirius Glass]

For lens CLA I highly recommend Carol Flutots http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/ lower cost with some waiting time but well worth it.

 

[LJH]

You need to put the torch inside the camera and shine it outwards (as if trying to shine through the bellows' fabric). This is critical in the folded corners. You are looking for any light shining through pinholes in the fabric. These are usually in these folded corners.

 

[Alan Gales]

To add to LJH's suggestion, stretch the bellows all the way out and in a darkened room check for pinholes with a flashlight (torch in Australia).

If the bellows is light tight and the camera works properly then you did get a fair deal. You might explain to the Seller about the shutter needing a CLA and not as advertised. He may give you a partial refund. Don't worry about the film holders because you can buy nice used ones for dirt cheap.

That Caltar lens is in an older shutter but it has nice glass.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Just file a claim and send it back... you won't lose a penny. I suspect you won't be happy keeping it... but good luck finding a better deal than that. If you want perfection then be ready to spend many times that amount. I have a Toyo 45GX on eBay right now for a little less than $500... no lens, film holders, or dark cloth included... but it's a beauty. I also have a 210mm Apo Symmar-L listed for a little less than $750. I can sell Graflex/Riteway film holders for $9 each plus shipping. You decide what you want to do.

Tell ya' what... I'll sell the 45GX with 210 Apo Symmar-L and the seven film holders for $1195 shipped CONUS lower 48.

 

[shutterfinger]

1. That camera in pristine condition with that shutter freshly CLAed would go for $350 on ebay easily + shipping and $450-$500 in a local store.
2. I charge $85 for a shutter CLA.
3. Mount the camera on a tripod, remove the focus panel and lens board, extend the standards as far as the bellows will allow. Spray the exterior of the bellows with Windex. Using a soft cotton towel or paper towels wipe the exterior clean/dry while supporting the area being wiped with your other hand from the inside. Once the entire bellows are clean spray them down with Pledge furniture polish, the yellow can Pledge only, let sit for 15 to 30 minutes then rub the Pledge in while wiping off the excess supporting the bellows as when cleaning.
4. Place the camera in a dark room and shine a bright light inside the bellows while looking at the exterior of the bellows. That bright light can be your LED flashlight, a cfl in a small table lamp or open socket trouble lamp or similar. Be careful not to touch the inside of the bellows with a hot light source as you most likely will burn a hole in them.
5. Any pin holes can be repaired by painting the inside of the bellows with Golden Heavy Body Artist Paint #1040 Carbon Black or Tulip washable fabric paint, black or ebony. Both are available at craft stores and can be diluted with water up to 50%. Apply in two or three thin coats with an economy artist paint brush. Tears in pleat seams can be repaired by gluing tight weave black cotton or nylon cloth to the inside of the bellows then painting as needed over the tear repair if it is not light tight.
6. Most returns on ebay require you to pay the return shipping. All cleaning and patch supplies can be purchased for the cost of the return shipping.
7. Post a picture of the tripod socket. It may be a pressed in insert in a metal housing or a striped wood block of which either can be repaired without great expense.
8. Remove the darkslides from one film holder at a time. Blow out the darkslide slots with caned air. Clean the film plate and darkslides with Windex and clean paper towels. Blow out any lint with the caned air then replace the darkslides. The edges of the darkslides can be rubbed with household wax if needed to get them slide easily after cleaning.

Send me a pm if you want me to do the CLA.

 

[palewin]

Heck, since we are all throwing in our two cents, I have to say that I was very impressed by Shutterfinger's detailed recommendations. My vote would be that you follow his cleaning instructions for the camera and holders, and invest the $85 he mentions for a lens CLA. Assuming that the various posts about the value of your camera and lens in "cleaned and CLA'd condition" are correct, if you are still unsatisfied after all of this, you could still re-sell the camera and lens and recover your added expenses.

You began your several threads on entering LF by saying you wanted a low-cost way to see if you liked Large Format. Pretty much by definition you eliminated "pristine" used equipment, simply because in general, the better the condition of the equipment, the higher the price. With the cleaned up Calumet and holders, and a CLA'd lens, you still will have a very low-cost way to see if you enjoy the equipment, and a re-sell option to minimize any financial hits if you decide that you've lost interest.

 

[LMNOP]

Heck, since we are all throwing in our two cents, I have to say that I was very impressed by Shutterfinger's detailed recommendations. My vote would be that you follow his cleaning instructions for the camera and holders, and invest the $85 he mentions for a lens CLA. Assuming that the various posts about the value of your camera and lens in "cleaned and CLA'd condition" are correct, if you are still unsatisfied after all of this, you could still re-sell the camera and lens and recover your added expenses.

You began your several threads on entering LF by saying you wanted a low-cost way to see if you liked Large Format. Pretty much by definition you eliminated "pristine" used equipment, simply because in general, the better the condition of the equipment, the higher the price. With the cleaned up Calumet and holders, and a CLA'd lens, you still will have a very low-cost way to see if you enjoy the equipment, and a re-sell option to minimize any financial hits if you decide that you've lost interest.

I have to say, shutterfinger is right. I will reach out to him about the CLA after I check with my local guy to see if he can do it for less than 100. I will contact eBay for a partial refund because this is not as advertised but still usable for sure.

UPDATE:

i spent all morning with the camera. I constructed a makeshift dark space in my closet and loaded two sheets of ilford 100 into the cleanest and most acceptable holder. I went outside into my neighbor and carefully made two exposures of not that interesting stuff. It caught the attention of three of my neighbors, I was approached twice and one of these neighbors introduced himself as a fellow film shooter, kinda funny. I cannot explain how much I enjoyed the long drawn out process of calculating these exposures. It is like I imagined, an even more complex version of shooting with my Mamiya RZ67, and a new learning curve, I love the process and challenge.

I Will stick with this low cost calumet, service the lens, get new holders. Depending on how these two shots come out, I have more decisions to make but I can't wait. I think I might need a better tripod, this one does wobble a bit but everything is tight. The kit Came with a nice case so I am totally in business. I have a lot of work to do but it's worth it, this is great. Ill be sure to share those shots no matter how bad they are. Here is a cell phone shot of the kit in daylight. By the way, both exposures were shot at f22-1/100th.

 

[LMNOP]

Tiltall tripod is perfect for this.

I've searched based on your recommendation before. Any particular model in mind?

 

[Alan Gales]

I've searched based on your recommendation before. Any particular model in mind?

Buy a Marchioni or Leitz version for less than $100.00. Skip the later Chinese versions. They are not the same. I paid $75.00 for my Leitz version at a local camera show. You can find them on Ebay too.

http://tiltallsupport.blogspot.com/p/tiltall-support.html

 

[mgb74]

Thanks for pointing us at it. Inexperienced seller -- been on ebay since April, '13 but 42 of his 44 feedback ratings are < 6 months old -- who sells mainly odds and ends. These types can't be counted on to know much about photographic equipment and can't evaluate it fairly. Good intentions, I'm sure, but not much competence with view cameras.

Thanks also for the video. The shutter certainly runs slow at 1 sec but it doesn't sound bad. Escapements are always noisy at one second.

You didn't expect to get a shutter in good order, did you? There's a law of nature to the effect that all used shutters need to be cleaned, lubricated and adjusted before they run properly. Keep the camera and have the shutter CLAd. You're unlikely to get as good a deal with a shutter in good order. And don't pour a solvent through the shutter. Ilexes are made to run dry and some of them have hard rubber blades that many solvents attack.

Check immediately that the bellows is light tight. This is a deal breaker.

I didn't read all 5 pages of comments, so I apologize if my comment is redundant.

While Dan's comment is valid, the seller catagorized the item as "used", which means (and I quote) "Used: An item that has been used previously. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended.".

If it's not, email the seller, explain the discrepancy, and push for a full refund including shipping - which he's unlikely to do. Or a partial refund with return of the lens. Don't ask simply for money back. Then open a case with ebay. At that point, if the seller offers a partial payment return, you can accept if you think fair.

 

[BrianShaw]

Even if the partial refund is refused you still got a killer deal. In my mind you should be jumping for joy rather than anything else. You got what you sought and your on your way to your goal.

 

[Sirius Glass]

You can save a whole lot of money on a tripod if instead of a big name brand you buy the Induro CT214 Carbon Fiber 8X tripod Cat. # 471-214 and the Induro PHQ1 Panhead Cat.#4479-101 like I did.

 

[Sirius Glass]

1. That camera in pristine condition with that shutter freshly CLAed would go for $350 on ebay easily + shipping and $450-$500 in a local store.
2. I charge $85 for a shutter CLA.
3. Mount the camera on a tripod, remove the focus panel and lens board, extend the standards as far as the bellows will allow. Spray the exterior of the bellows with Windex. Using a soft cotton towel or paper towels wipe the exterior clean/dry while supporting the area being wiped with your other hand from the inside. Once the entire bellows are clean spray them down with Pledge furniture polish, the yellow can Pledge only, let sit for 15 to 30 minutes then rub the Pledge in while wiping off the excess supporting the bellows as when cleaning.
4. Place the camera in a dark room and shine a bright light inside the bellows while looking at the exterior of the bellows. That bright light can be your LED flashlight, a cfl in a small table lamp or open socket trouble lamp or similar. Be careful not to touch the inside of the bellows with a hot light source as you most likely will burn a hole in them.
5. Any pin holes can be repaired by painting the inside of the bellows with Golden Heavy Body Artist Paint #1040 Carbon Black or Tulip washable fabric paint, black or ebony. Both are available at craft stores and can be diluted with water up to 50%. Apply in two or three thin coats with an economy artist paint brush. Tears in pleat seams can be repaired by gluing tight weave black cotton or nylon cloth to the inside of the bellows then painting as needed over the tear repair if it is not light tight.
6. Most returns on ebay require you to pay the return shipping. All cleaning and patch supplies can be purchased for the cost of the return shipping.
7. Post a picture of the tripod socket. It may be a pressed in insert in a metal housing or a striped wood block of which either can be repaired without great expense.
8. Remove the darkslides from one film holder at a time. Blow out the darkslide slots with caned air. Clean the film plate and darkslides with Windex and clean paper towels. Blow out any lint with the caned air then replace the darkslides. The edges of the darkslides can be rubbed with household wax if needed to get them slide easily after cleaning.

Send me a pm if you want me to do the CLA.

Great advice.

 

[fotch]

You may be right, you may be wrong. Everyone may have a different reaction, however, the only one that counts is the buyer. Of course, asking questions of the seller about specifics would of been smart, ask what is guaranteed, might be what a more experience buyer would do. Used anything, retailer or private party, falls into that category of the used car salesman, emphasizing the good. Not that all used care salesmen or dishonest, but you should not be surprised if they are less than forthcoming. Anyway, its a great camera and any older camera could go wrong at any moment anyway. JMHO

 

[BrianShaw]

Actually, Fotch, it may be the situation when buying old stuff cheap - cameras, cars, or women... Nothing that old is likely to be in perfect shape no matter what anyone says. Talk is cheap but going into a deal with eyes wide open to the realities of either buying old stuff or bottom feeding, and a skeptical attitude is invaluable. I like both old stuff and bottom feeding so don't think for a moment that I'm being critical.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Even if the partial refund is refused you still got a killer deal. In my mind you should be jumping for joy rather than anything else. You got what you sought and your on your way to your goal.

Brian, inexperienced buyers often have unrealistic expectations.

So do inexperienced photographers. The OP has already taken a couple of shots with his new treasure at, he said, 1/100. Negative film's latitude may save him but there's a law of nature to the effect that Ilex shutters' 1/100 speed can't be adjusted to be less than one stop slow. There are exceptions; I have one but I wonder how long its speeds will be good.

Cheers,

Dan

 

[LMNOP]

Brian, inexperienced buyers often have unrealistic expectations.

So do inexperienced photographers. The OP has already taken a couple of shots with his new treasure at, he said, 1/100. Negative film's latitude may save him but there's a law of nature to the effect that Ilex shutters' 1/100 speed can't be adjusted to be less than one stop slow. There are exceptions; I have one but I wonder how long its speeds will be good.

Cheers,

Dan

this is an interesting point though I hate to be categorized as an inexperienced photographer. Ten years with film and I'm just now trying large format, maybe I could have learned more before asking around here but photography is not a new concept to me by any means, large format however, different story.

i am hopeful that the 1/100 was close to accurate, though it does seem a bit slow. Shutterfinger sent me the details on his CLA service and I should be taking that offer unless local proves to make more sense. We will see how it fares after that.

 

[LMNOP]

Even if the partial refund is refused you still got a killer deal. In my mind you should be jumping for joy rather than anything else. You got what you sought and your on your way to your goal.

Agreed. I have come to see the value in this purchase regardless of the shortcomings. My expectations have been described as high but accurate shutter times is really all I'm sad to be missing. The seller has offered me a $50 dollar refund in order to keep this from being returned or opening a case. That means I spent 120 with shipping for a mostly useable camera, 90 bucks to be invested for cla, and most likely a few newer holders.

I made a good purchase, it's going to be my first LF camera, but I can already tell it won't be the last.

 

[BrianShaw]

LF isn't inexpensive.

A $50 settlement is more than I expected. Good for you. That's half the CLA cost!