Bulk rolling 120/220 film

[MCB18]

i have all the stuff to do it. tried a few rolls and it is much more labor intensive then I thought. lots of time, patience and a steady hand are needed. its the little things that add up that make it harder. 35mm bulk rolling is very easy and i know many who do. I have been saving all my backing paper for this reason. I did get a lot of the aviphot film as I love shooting B&W slides and that film works great for it. having 220 rolls of that makes travel a lot easier, especially in my mamiya 6, my fav travel camera.

this thread has me wanting to get back at it. Its a fun project but dont expect perfect results the first time. cut a few lengths of practice rolls to do trial runs in the light so you can get an idea of whats involved. for me, the hardest part is/was setting up a repeatable way to get the proper film length and then getting the backing paper secured properly (straight and tight)! my bulk film really curls and makes getting it flat a lot harder then I thought. there are a few 70mm bulk roller things, like what I use for 35mm that people 3d print and im tempted to get one of those

john

For what it’s worth, I do have a thread on how I make my 120/220 rolls, it’s not too terribly difficult, although it does take some patience, and as mentioned, time. It is in my signature. It also includes a video that shows basically the complete process of making a 120 roll in the light.

 

[blee1996]

I think I will start bulk rolling 220 as well. I still have some 70mm bulk rolls and even a 70mm to 120 slicer.

 

[loccdor]

Honestly I'd like to be able to shoot 220, which is nonexistent as far as I can tell.

You can still find some of it expired in decent condition. It has the advantage that it doesn't get age-related defects from the backing paper like 120 does since it doesn't have any. Since it's less popular, its price on the secondhand market relative to 120 can be favorable.

In 2024 I took a long trip with about 20 rolls of 220 film. A combination of expired stuff and rolls from MCB18. I used it in a 645 camera and liked that I got almost as many shots before a reload as 35mm. There was a lot of moving around and not a lot of time to stop, so it helped.

Shanghai GP3 makes film in 220, although whether you will like it depends on your tolerance for film defects.

I had good results with expired 220 Plus-X.

 

[gorbas]

Please don't forget that you can also make #828, 127 or 116 rolls or any other long forgotten roll format. Back in the day my son used a lot of 127 and I bought 70mm perforated film to roll our own 127 and it was fun and way cheaper than buying overpriced old stock. 70mm rolled on #116 does not require any slitting and it's the most straightforward of all. For proper 120 you need to slit unperforated 70mm stock.

 

[MCB18]

Please don't forget that you can also make #828, 127 or 116 rolls or any other long forgotten roll format. Back in the day my son used a lot of 127 and I bought 70mm perforated film to roll our own 127 and it was fun and way cheaper than buying overpriced old stock. 70mm rolled on #116 does not require any slitting and it's the most straightforward of all. For proper 120 you need to slit unperforated 70mm stock.

If I ever get a big film slitter made, I’ll be able to (hopefully) make anything from minox to 8-inch cirkut film at home. Possibly even 12-inch rolls if I design it to take 32cm rolls along with 24cm rolls. Definitely in B&W, but maybe in color too if I can find a way to get single rolls of Aerocolor. But like I said earlier, this is a daunting project and I’m not sure when/if it’ll happen.

 

[lt_col_gordon_tall]

There used to be thousands of feet of it in 70mm on there, which is what I bought. Much easier to handle. I have been thinking about how to make a 9.5 inch roll slitter, but that is a very big project so I have yet to make much progress besides saying “This is the concept for how it should work.” If I can get that made then I can offer many more old and obscure film sizes to folks.

Well I just looked on eBay and saw one 70mm roll of Aviphot 200. Expired in 2012, seller claims it has been frozen but also said exposes best at IS0 50. I went ahead and bought it. Price obviously isn't as good as the 9.5" rolls but not bad and the seller is US based, so no tariffs.

 

[MCB18]

Well I just looked on eBay and saw one 70mm roll of Aviphot 200. Expired in 2012, seller claims it has been frozen but also said exposes best at IS0 50. I went ahead and bought it. Price obviously isn't as good as the 9.5" rolls but not bad and the seller is US based, so no tariffs.

Just an FYI, I poked that guy about that roll as well. I asked him who the seller he initially bought the roll from India was, and it was not the same person that I bought my stock from, which is why I didn’t pull the trigger. So I would just keep in mind that this stuff might have some pretty noticeable issues, which is probably why they suggest you overexpose it.

There were multiple sellers of the stuff from India, and from what I understand, depending on who you got it from, you could get very good results or very bad results. I happened to find a seller that had film that was stored well, although I know that some folks on here have bought from different sellers and I’ve had extremely heat damaged film

 

[lt_col_gordon_tall]

Just an FYI, I poked that guy about that roll as well. I asked him who the seller he initially bought the roll from India was, and it was not the same person that I bought my stock from, which is why I didn’t pull the trigger. So I would just keep in mind that this stuff might have some pretty noticeable issues, which is probably why they suggest you overexpose it.

There were multiple sellers of the stuff from India, and from what I understand, depending on who you got it from, you could get very good results or very bad results. I happened to find a seller that had film that was stored well, although I know that some folks on here have bought from different sellers and I’ve had extremely heat damaged film

Thanks. I'll keep my fingers crossed and let you know how it works out.

 

[Cholentpot]

Yep, my stuff is useful but quite toasty. I use it but don't expect much.

 

[blee1996]

My three cans of Aviphot have different level of mottling. But it was so cheap that I accepted it as is.

 

[Theodor Bader]

Yep, just did it today as a matter of fact!

You can get the film from a few places if you’re willing to buy an entire master roll, but as of right now, Astrum is the only place I can find 61.5mm rolls at reasonable quantities. After shipping and tariffs a roll of FN-64 in 61.5mm costs around $180, ≈$5/roll.

Backing paper is also possible to get, Shanghai sells it for $4/roll, although I bought some for 127 and it was awful so I’m not sure if I’d recommend them.

I have also gotten giant rolls of red/black paper from Astrum, but you need to cut them and mark them yourself. I do this for 220, not for 120 though.

I usually just ask people for used backing paper.

As far as bulk rolling film goes, I honestly wouldn’t recommend it to many people. Can it be done cheaper? Yes, but it takes a lot more time and effort than 35mm.

To put this in perspective, I just rolled about 30 rolls of 2424 infrared film and it took me about 4-5 hours just to roll already slit film into pre-prepared backing paper. including the time it took to prepare the paper and slit the film, it probably took closer to 10 hours.

Meanwhile, I think it takes me maybe 30-45 minutes to break up a 100 foot roll of 35mm in my darkroom without a loader.

Hello and thank You very much for sharing Your discription of the bulk -rollfilm procedure!
I was at the internett site of Astrum LLC and tried to find a salespartner/company who sells the rollfilm in bulk. Where did You buy this?

 

[MCB18]

Hello and thank You very much for sharing Your discription of the bulk -rollfilm procedure!
I was at the internett site of Astrum LLC and tried to find a salespartner/company who sells the rollfilm in bulk. Where did You buy this?

Their website is extremely outdated, but the contact form should work, and they also have an IG account (@svema_official). At the moment they’re being a bit slow on account of the whole war situation, but they will, eventually, get you film if you get in touch.

 

[Theodor Bader]

Their website is extremely outdated, but the contact form should work, and they also have an IG account (@svema_official). At the moment they’re being a bit slow on account of the whole war situation, but they will, eventually, get you film if you get in touch.

Some information of an european college Alfred Schulze ( https://alfred-schulze.de/) from forum.aphog.com:

Sveum is only a trademark. Astrum has taken over the production of b&w films and more:

Svema (Schwarzweißfilme)…(black &hvite films)	Astrum
Svema Color (Color films come from Kodak)	Kodak Aerocolor IV

Alfred belives that the Instagram site @sveum_officials must be produced by friends of Astrum.


More details about production...

Cinema and photo materials

www.astrum-ltd.com

I am still waiting for an answer from Astrum.

 

[MCB18]

Sveum is only a trademark. Astrum has taken over the production of b&w films and more:

Yes they put their brand on films that they finish. They have no coating facilities of their own so they finish already existing films. They do this extremely well though, and cheap, so I don’t mind. Even with the new tariffs it is still the cheapest place for Aviphot (if you buy enough to make shipping worth it).

 

[lamerko]

At the moment, my source of film comes down to the following options:
- 70 mm unperforated (the best option);
- 70 mm perforated;
- 65 mm perforated (the worst option).
Each of these has to be reduced to 61 mm. With the first option, you get a perfect cut. With the second, the perforations are cut through, but the image area remains unaffected. With the third option, the perforations are not cut, but they remain on the trimmed side and therefore intrude into the frame.
My first step is to cut pieces 85 mm in length. After that, these pieces have to go through the slitter - this can be quite a tedious task with color films like Vision3 65 mm, because the film is noticeably thicker. Once all the strips are ready, it’s time to wind them. With a bit of practice, this takes only about 2-3 minutes per roll.
The idea that you should count your time as added value makes sense to me only in the case of commercial work. When it comes to a hobby, I see this activity as part of the hobby itself. The time I spend on it wouldn’t be monetized anyway if I weren’t doing this. Whether I sit in front of the TV with a beer and a salad, or spend that time winding ten or so rolls that will last me for a certain period ahead, it’s simply a matter of choice. One can’t spend 24/7 working or calculating profits and losses…

 

[Theodor Bader]

At the moment, my source of film comes down to the following options:
- 70 mm unperforated (the best option);
- 70 mm perforated;
- 65 mm perforated (the worst option).
Each of these has to be reduced to 61 mm. With the first option, you get a perfect cut. With the second, the perforations are cut through, but the image area remains unaffected. With the third option, the perforations are not cut, but they remain on the trimmed side and therefore intrude into the frame.
My first step is to cut pieces 85 mm in length. After that, these pieces have to go through the slitter - this can be quite a tedious task with color films like Vision3 65 mm, because the film is noticeably thicker. Once all the strips are ready, it’s time to wind them. With a bit of practice, this takes only about 2-3 minutes per roll.
The idea that you should count your time as added value makes sense to me only in the case of commercial work. When it comes to a hobby, I see this activity as part of the hobby itself. The time I spend on it wouldn’t be monetized anyway if I weren’t doing this. Whether I sit in front of the TV with a beer and a salad, or spend that time winding ten or so rolls that will last me for a certain period ahead, it’s simply a matter of choice. One can’t spend 24/7 working or calculating profits and losses…

I am not sure but ask... are You writing of the films You own and work with, or do You have intentions/possibilities to sell these films ? What is Your source / where did You get these films?

 

[lamerko]

Well… maybe I should clarify that I occasionally suffer from that "disease" that makes you buy random things
I’m talking about the films I have. I don’t sell them - I’m not interested in dealing with taxes and bureaucracy. And when you work with clients, there’s always someone dissatisfied who gets on your nerves.
Some of the films I’ve collected are expired. From sellers in India, I got some rather bulky 70 mm Agfa Aviphot 200 boxes - both perforated and unperforated. They're expired, and some have strange fragments, maybe from moisture or a manufacturing defect, I’m not sure. I’d say they were a good deal; it’s a very interesting film. I think I also got two 100 ft 70 mm Kodak 2402 boxes from there - wonderful film, but I didn’t stock up when it was being sold widely for next to nothing. My mistake. From eBay, I’ve picked up single rolls of various films, like 70 mm Kodak 'Aerographic' (70 m) - they pop up from time to time. I also got a big lot of 70 mm Fujichrome CDU II. More than I could ever use… All of these are expired.
But I really wanted to try 65 mm Vision3. Back then, I could still freely order 35 mm in 400' and 1000' sizes, but not 65 mm. Then one company called me - they'd returned around ten 1000 ft 65 mm 50D rolls from a failed production at half price. As they say, "deal of the year." I grabbed one immediately. And 1000' is a lot of film… Later I came across two whole 1000 ft rolls of 250D, in a fit of that "disease"

 

[Theodor Bader]

Well… maybe I should clarify that I occasionally suffer from that "disease" that makes you buy random things
I’m talking about the films I have. I don’t sell them - I’m not interested in dealing with taxes and bureaucracy. And when you work with clients, there’s always someone dissatisfied who gets on your nerves.
Some of the films I’ve collected are expired. From sellers in India, I got some rather bulky 70 mm Agfa Aviphot 200 boxes - both perforated and unperforated. They're expired, and some have strange fragments, maybe from moisture or a manufacturing defect, I’m not sure. I’d say they were a good deal; it’s a very interesting film. I think I also got two 100 ft 70 mm Kodak 2402 boxes from there - wonderful film, but I didn’t stock up when it was being sold widely for next to nothing. My mistake. From eBay, I’ve picked up single rolls of various films, like 70 mm Kodak 'Aerographic' (70 m) - they pop up from time to time. I also got a big lot of 70 mm Fujichrome CDU II. More than I could ever use… All of these are expired.
But I really wanted to try 65 mm Vision3. Back then, I could still freely order 35 mm in 400' and 1000' sizes, but not 65 mm. Then one company called me - they'd returned around ten 1000 ft 65 mm 50D rolls from a failed production at half price. As they say, "deal of the year." I grabbed one immediately. And 1000' is a lot of film… Later I came across two whole 1000 ft rolls of 250D, in a fit of that "disease"

Thanks for your detailed reply. My experience with expired film (mainly 35mm) has actually been surprisingly good. Ideally, you'd get several meters (or rolls) of film from the same batch. This post about 120/220 film gave me the idea to try cutting a larger format. Luckily, I didn't throw away my backing paper. Unfortunately, I still haven't received a reply from Ukraine to my inquiry from the beginning of January. Unfortunately, in Norway, all things which crosses the border is taxed ( 25%, except food and some other specia things), regardless of whether it's used or broken. Therefore, you have to think carefully about what you import.

 

[Cholentpot]

I suffer a similar issue. But it manifests in asking the primary sufferers if they'll just send me a few hundred feet of the 50D or 250D in 65mm...

 

[MCB18]

Well… maybe I should clarify that I occasionally suffer from that "disease" that makes you buy random things
I’m talking about the films I have. I don’t sell them - I’m not interested in dealing with taxes and bureaucracy. And when you work with clients, there’s always someone dissatisfied who gets on your nerves.
Some of the films I’ve collected are expired. From sellers in India, I got some rather bulky 70 mm Agfa Aviphot 200 boxes - both perforated and unperforated. They're expired, and some have strange fragments, maybe from moisture or a manufacturing defect, I’m not sure. I’d say they were a good deal; it’s a very interesting film. I think I also got two 100 ft 70 mm Kodak 2402 boxes from there - wonderful film, but I didn’t stock up when it was being sold widely for next to nothing. My mistake. From eBay, I’ve picked up single rolls of various films, like 70 mm Kodak 'Aerographic' (70 m) - they pop up from time to time. I also got a big lot of 70 mm Fujichrome CDU II. More than I could ever use… All of these are expired.
But I really wanted to try 65 mm Vision3. Back then, I could still freely order 35 mm in 400' and 1000' sizes, but not 65 mm. Then one company called me - they'd returned around ten 1000 ft 65 mm 50D rolls from a failed production at half price. As they say, "deal of the year." I grabbed one immediately. And 1000' is a lot of film… Later I came across two whole 1000 ft rolls of 250D, in a fit of that "disease"

I am also this way, just last week I bought 1600 ft of X-Ray film in 70mm and a giant roll of IR imagesetter film…

I suffer a similar issue. But it manifests in asking the primary sufferers if they'll just send me a few hundred feet of the 50D or 250D in 65mm...

I’m still a bit annoyed that Kodak won’t sell single rolls of the stuff to individuals. I get not wanting resale, but if you are ordering just 1 roll, how is that a problem? If you don’t want to charge cinema prices just say that, I’ll pay 10% more or something as long as I can get it. $430-ish for 400 ft of 35mm after shipping and taxes is still much preferable to buying individual rolls at $12-15 each…

As far as 65mm, I hate cutting it to 120 with my current slitter, but as a 70mm substitute it’s pretty great! I kept around 75 ft of 250D just for that purpose. A full 1000 ft roll is quite an investment (and I can only buy single rolls of 200T and 500T now, boooo), but if I could get it consistently, I could also buy a very nice slitter for 120/220 that could let me make MF film from it.

 

[blee1996]

I’m still a bit annoyed that Kodak won’t sell single rolls of the stuff to individuals. I get not wanting resale, but if you are ordering just 1 roll, how is that a problem? If you don’t want to charge cinema prices just say that, I’ll pay 10% more or something as long as I can get it. $430-ish for 400 ft of 35mm after shipping and taxes is still much preferable to buying individual rolls at $12-15 each…

Kodak don't want the "cheaper" cine film to erode their fatter margin on 135 Ektar and Ektachrome film. It is just a simple business decision, although we might not agree with it.

 

[MCB18]

Kodak don't want the "cheaper" cine film to erode their fatter margin on 135 Ektar and Ektachrome film. It is just a simple business decision, although we might not agree with it.

As I understand it, their issue is massive resale. They didn’t (and from talking to one of my friends who knows someone at Kodak) still don’t particularly care about selling small amounts of film to photographers who bulk load or shoot short films for themselves. The problem is that they don’t have a way to insure that you are actually using it yourself and not reselling. So they just restrict sale to everyone.

It’s not a great solution, let’s be honest the people that this is actually targeting pretty much aren’t affected by it because they have the resources to get around it, but doing something made the higher ups happy, so we got stuck with it.

 

[Theodor Bader]

As I understand it, their issue is massive resale. They didn’t (and from talking to one of my friends who knows someone at Kodak) still don’t particularly care about selling small amounts of film to photographers who bulk load or shoot short films for themselves. The problem is that they don’t have a way to insure that you are actually using it yourself and not reselling. So they just restrict sale to everyone.

It’s not a great solution, let’s be honest the people that this is actually targeting pretty much aren’t affected by it because they have the resources to get around it, but doing something made the higher ups happy, so we got stuck with it.

The question is, what does Kodak do with the leftover film that's essentially unsellable?

Kodak could boast about its environmental credentials if they sold this leftover film to hobby photographers instead of gradually disposing of it.

I believe that only a very tiny percentage of people actually put in the work involved.

Cutting it lengthwise and then widthwise. Then adding the paper backing...
all done blindly in the darkroom...

This can't become a big competitive business, especially since there's no guaranteed continuous supply.

And whoever then sells the roll film can't offer any quality guarantee.

Feel free to pass this on to your Kodak contacts.

 

[koraks]

Kodak could boast about its environmental credentials if they sold this leftover film to hobby photographers instead of gradually disposing of it.

But then, at some point, reality kicks in one way or another. What's the real footprint reduction of this endeavor? The issue isn't going to sell. Forget it.

Sorry to be such a negative Nancy about this specific thing, but the way I see it, EK doesn't have all that much of a pressing obligation to report on sustainability esp. for stills film, and even if they do, some waste on film is likely not going to be a very material issue. If they're to report, the real pain is likely going to be in scope 3.11 emissions and esp. in their offset business.

 

[Theodor Bader]

But then, at some point, reality kicks in one way or another. What's the real footprint reduction of this endeavor? The issue isn't going to sell. Forget it.

Sorry to be such a negative Nancy about this specific thing, but the way I see it, EK doesn't have all that much of a pressing obligation to report on sustainability esp. for stills film, and even if they do, some waste on film is likely not going to be a very material issue. If they're to report, the real pain is likely going to be in scope 3.11 emissions and esp. in their offset business.

Maybe. Looking around the world, all sorts of trivial things are being sold as environmentally friendly. That's all I can think of right now.