Bulk film loader

pentaxuser said:

it is probably a labyrinthine type which doesn't need any felt as light cannot turn enough corners

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Lloyd style loaders have a labyrinth light trap, but still have felt -- it both makes the light trap more effective (by absorbing light that would otherwise be reflected or scattered, thus reducing the number curves needed) and reduces scratching by giving the film a soft surface to rub against instead of hard molded plastic (classically Bakelite, which was reinforced with fumed silica or glass fibers). Watson type have no felt, because they use a gate that opens and closes to allow the film to pass, or to protect it from light.

Based on the auction photos linked above, this King loader is a Watson type, but folded to resemble a Lloyd in shape.

Donald Qualls said:

I hadn't seen the auction photos previously. They weren't linked up thread.

This, then, is not quite either a Lloyd or Watson type -- Lloyd shaped, but Watson operation. Scratching can come from failing to open the film gate while winding into the cassette or dragging the film over the counter sprockets, just as it would in a Watson/Weston. There are videos on YouTube showing how to operate that style of loader.

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Film gate ? Ill give it another try, I know theres something im doing wrong.

Donald Qualls said:

I don't know of any genuinely bad bulk loaders -- there are basically two types, the Watson style and the Lloyd style.

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There's also this type. I actually prefer it to the popular Watson, which I also have. Externally, it has the appearance of having been chiselled from a solid block of plastic, but inside it is smooth as glass. It has a felt-free light trap, it is not such a silly shape overall as the Watson, and the handle detaches for storage inside (OK, that means you either have to load up the entire bulk roll, or tape the handle to the loader to avoid loss). And it is 'Computerized' - woohoo!

This last (Telesar) is effectively a Lloyd with a counter. I presume that's also the case with the Bobinquick and AP units. Because of the added counter, this will fog about as much film on each cassette change as a Watson -- look at the light path from cassette chamber to the corner with the fin pointing at the sprocket shaft.

The King from the OP, however (assuming it's the same as in the Japanese auction link later in the thread), is marked by the knurled edge of the film chamber lid as having a gate like a Watson. It should also have an interlock to prevent opening the cassette chamber with the gate open (which would fog part of the bulk roll); that gate needs to be opened when the film has been attached to the cassette spool, cassette closed and installed on the crank, and cassette chamber closed, to let the film spool off the bulk roll freely without scratching. Then the gate must be closed again before removing the filled cassette.

Well the telestar which is the one I have as well and is exactly the same as in snusmumriken's post, It is a labyrinthine type with no felt trap and I find it a very good loader. The path of the film requires more care when threading the film than does the AP style which does have a sealed light trap but I found it better than the Watson in terms of shape. being square and more compact and while I always tend to load the first 5 frames to be safe I get the impression that 3 frames wastage might well be enough. The two dials seem very reliable in terms of frame count and bulk roll usage count

However it's a matter of each to his/her own loader of course

pentaxuser

Donald Qualls said:

This last (Telesar) is effectively a Lloyd with a counter. I presume that's also the case with the Bobinquick and AP units. Because of the added counter, this will fog about as much film on each cassette change as a Watson -- look at the light path from cassette chamber to the corner with the fin pointing at the sprocket shaft.

The King from the OP, however (assuming it's the same as in the Japanese auction link later in the thread), is marked by the knurled edge of the film chamber lid as having a gate like a Watson. It should also have an interlock to prevent opening the cassette chamber with the gate open (which would fog part of the bulk roll); that gate needs to be opened when the film has been attached to the cassette spool, cassette closed and installed on the crank, and cassette chamber closed, to let the film spool off the bulk roll freely without scratching. Then the gate must be closed again before removing the filled cassette.

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I was thinking it was something to do with the chamber, ill think the way you explain will solve my problem. Will give feedback once I tried it.

In case fogging of the filmstrip of too far length is an issue with ones bulk-loader, then doing the critical operations in the dark will yield an outcome.

This will diminish the largest benefit od the loader. But some may need other features of a bulk-loader, or just cling to it.

AgX said:

In case fogging of the filmstrip of too far length is an issue with ones bulk-loader, then doing the critical operations in the dark will yield an outcome.

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I've done this with a Watson. With care, setting up spools and cassette shells and precut tape strips to hand, it's very practical, and still easier than loading without the loader -- if nothing else, the clicker on the sprocket shaft in a Watson makes it easy to count actual frames rather than just crank turns.

IR goggles would let you do the operation in "darkness" (as far as the film is concerned, for most films) and still see what you're doing, but those of us with decades of darkroom experience probably find it easier to tape film to the cassette and assemble it in the dark than to light seal IR goggles and learn to be comfortable using them.

Donald Qualls said:

This last (Telesar) is effectively a Lloyd with a counter. I presume that's also the case with the Bobinquick and AP units. Because of the added counter, this will fog about as much film on each cassette change as a Watson -- look at the light path from cassette chamber to the corner with the fin pointing at the sprocket shaft.

Click to expand...

Actually it's about 3cm less than with the Watson, and I always get the full 36 exp from each film.

For the OP ... from what I can see (there are more photos online here), the metal lever locks the hatch that covers the cassette chamber, and opens an internal gate that makes a light seal between the bulk roll chamber and the cassette chamber. The words 'open' and 'closed' would refer to that gate. So I think you would figure out how to use this from any film loader manual, like the Watson.

snusmumriken said:

Actually it's about 3cm less than with the Watson, and I always get the full 36 exp from each film.

For the OP ... from what I can see (there are more photos online here), the metal lever locks the hatch that covers the cassette chamber, and opens an internal gate that makes a light seal between the bulk roll chamber and the cassette chamber. The words 'open' and 'closed' would refer to that gate. So I think you would figure out how to use this from any film loader manual, like the Watson.

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Thank you yes, I didnt realise there was a gate to open when rolling a film. I did make a roll and there seems to be no scratching, will only be certain when I get new developer.

Basically there are 4 types of light barriers in bulk-loaders:

-) a labyrinth
-) a seal all-time pressed to the film
-) a hatch to be operated manually
-) a hatch operated automatically by the crank

AgX said:

Basically there are 4 types of light barriers in bulk-loaders:

-) a labyrinth
-) a seal all-time pressed to the film
-) a hatch to be operated manually
-) a hatch operated automatically by the crank

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Yes the AP Bobinquick loader belongs to the last group. With mine you can actually push the bulk roll through the opening via a knob that operates the sprocket near the exit of the bulk roll but until the film has emerged from the opening it is blocked by a hatch which requires the crank to be pushed through the winding hole. However when cranking the film into a cassette you need the crank handle to be pushed into the crank handle hole so the film is in no danger of being scratched. During the cranking the top hinged lid is also down and the crank handle hole is filled by the crank handle

The result is that the film is in a light tight passage from the bulk roll into the cassette so it's a foolproof system. For each new cassette you set the frame counter triangle mark to the triangle mark on the outer chamber mark. This gives you 5 frames for the necessary wastage on each film but I suspect you might get away with 3 frames. Then you crank the number of frames required. You can reset on each occasion.

Another dial tracks the film used in metres and feet. This dial can be reset to S for start each time a new bulk roll is started. The only sophistication it doesn't have is the ability to reset the film usage to a 17 metre roll. The only "work-around" then that I can see is either to mark a line of the dial at 13 from the S or very laboriously turn the built-in winding knob until the meter registers 17 i.e, it shows 13 metres used and then the end becomes the same end point at 0 metres remaining

All in all a very good loader

pentaxuser

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