Brownish mottling/staining on my fiber prints after selenium toning

[Philippe-Georges]

Dear Koraks,

I appreciate your very informative and elaborated writings, this proves that I will never be to old to learn!

Concerning the stop bath: cost effectivity was never really my goal, but at the time when AGFA demised and I started working with Pyrocat-HD (pure coincidence), the only knowledge I had was not to use acids with staining developers and to avoid an acetic stop bath when using neutral-to-alkaline (C-41) fixers.
The Ryui formula was all I found that could be used with the chemical compound I had sitting in my dark room being a bucket of 5 kg Sodium Hydroxide pearls that was given to me by a baker (*) who stoppend business...

BTW, about washing film and/or FB paper, Ilford published an interesting article discussing this.

(*) Diluted Sodium Hydroxide is sprayed over cookies just before they go into the oven, so these get a nice yet resistent crust that can't crumble when packed and transported (how appetizing). In the old times salted water was used but was less effective.

 

[koraks]

(*) Diluted Sodium Hydroxide is sprayed over cookies just before they go into the oven, so these get a nice yet resistent crust that can't crumble when packed and transported (how appetizing).

So we both learned something today
Hang on to that sodium hydroxide; it's very convenient to keep around the house. I always buy it as drain cleaner pellets and use it whenever something calls for a rise in pH and the sodium ion doesn't hurt (if it does, I also have some potassium hydroxide).

Rest assured on the C41 as well as the pyrocat - acid stop bath works A-OK with both. Of course, there's nothing badly wrong with the Suzuki buffered stop bath. I understand you've been using it for years now and apparently with no ill side effects. So no sweat!

 

[DREW WILEY]

I never replenish anything, but just mix enough for the day's session. That alleviates a lot of headaches.

 

[john_s]

Of course, there's nothing badly wrong with the Suzuki buffered stop bath.

And my stop bath (see above) is analogous to the Suzuki one, just using sodium metabisulphite instead of acetic acid. I don't reuse it usually, though it does last a while.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I never replenish anything, but just mix enough for the day's session. That alleviates a lot of headaches.

Perhaps you should see a neurologist about the headaches. I never got a headache as a result of replenishing developers.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

I never replenish anything, but just mix enough for the day's session. That alleviates a lot of headaches.

That's an option like an any other...
But, not reusing chemicals involves more waste, not to mention economy (which isn't the main reason why I replenish).
And in some cases, I just filter the product (*)...

Avoiding headaches is rather simple: just stick a pice of masking tape on the jug and write on it the date of first use and the amount or the surface that went through. It's just a matter of basic working discipline and organisation (which is paramount in a darkroom).

(*) This is how I do it while tidying up the darkroom, thanks to gravity...

Sorry for the digital photo...

 

[Bill Burk]

I had staining with fresh fix, after too short a water wash. So have moved to a longer wash before KRST. This with Ilford Galerie.

Now I give about an hour wash before toning, if I am toning at all.

Bleaching does no good because it’s not silver after toning. It’s silver selenide.

 

[nmp]

I have been reading this thread with interest - in context of recently trying to find a good way to check/test my salt print process for adequate fixing and archival washing.

Am I deducing correctly from the discussion that if a drop of dilute KRST stains a fully processed (fixed and washed) print, it may be due to either incomplete fixing (residual silver chloride) or not fully washing out the products of fixation or both. To test washing efficiency separately, a better way is to use something like HT-2 (acidified silver nitrate) that will react with the fixer but not any residual silver chloride.

:Niranjan.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I always give a long final wash in the slot washer. But I have never had a toning issue as long as the prints sat in a holding bath of water a little while fist , at least not since I began standardizing on TF4 archival fixer. I sorta remember it happening long ago, when I was first learning and using ordinary hypo. For me, final print quality is a lot more important than a little extra cost. Besides, I generally needed to conserve time too ("time is money"). And not a single print of mine ever since has shown the slightest symptom of improper fixing. Long fix times, second baths, replenishment, HCA - been there, but will never return to it.

 

[nmp]

I always give a long final wash in the slot washer. But I have never had a toning issue as long as the prints sat in a holding bath of water a little while fist , at least not since I began standardizing on TF4 archival fixer. I sorta remember it happening long ago, when I was first learning and using ordinary hypo. For me, final print quality is a lot more important than a little extra cost. Besides, I generally needed to conserve time too ("time is money"). And not a single print of mine ever since has shown the slightest symptom of improper fixing. Long fix times, second baths, replenishment, HCA - been there, but will never return to it.

I understand. That makes sense for the conventional silver gelatin. However, for the salt print the issue is more complicated. First it is much more difficult to fix and wash salt prints to completion because of myriad of reasons. Secondly, the optimum conditions seem to vary according to the particular recipe and the type of paper used. So an universal fixing and washing routine may not work. That's why I want to have an analytical method or two that can quickly tell me if I have the right set of processing conditions while I tinker with various chemistry and paper combinations.

:Niranjan.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, any alt process has its own complications. While I greatly admire such media when well done, and even have a variety in my overall collection, I simply don't have time for alt work myself, already being highly involved not only with conventional silver printing, but deeply into color as well. I need another lifetime or two.

 

[nmp]

Well, any alt process has its own complications. While I greatly admire such media when well done, and even have a variety in my overall collection, I simply don't have time for alt work myself, already being highly involved not only with conventional silver printing, but deeply into color as well. I need another lifetime or two.

Yeah, alt process is like a time-pit. No matter how much you put in, it's never enough....

 

[snusmumriken]

If the paper is MG Classic, you need to be extra careful to quickly immerse the print evenly in each respective solution, and pay attention that it remains submersed, with no areas briefly floating above the solution. That applies to the fixer step too. Keep up consistent gentle fluid agitation over the whole area. An acid stop bath would certainly help in this case. MG Cooltone is fussy in the same manner; but MGWT is a lot more forgiving. Never re-use TF4 or TF5 fixer on another day; only use it fresh. No need for double-tray fixing or HCA.

In other words, I doubt your problem is fixer depletion. More likely, it's uneven fixing. But uneven dev could also be a contributing factor, especially when attempting to use plain water in lieu of a stop bath.

+1.

When I adopted the two fixer bath strategy, the pinky-grey stains I sometimes got with fibre MG in selenium toner stopped happening. Almost entirely. The one thing that brings them back is if I neglect to rock the dish and keep the print covered while it is fixing. I use just 1 litre of solution in a 16x12 tray, so there is less than 1 cm depth and rocking is critical. I also mix fresh solution for the second fixer bath every day I spend in the darkroom. I don't use sodium sulphite, but I wash for at least 15 min between fixing and toning.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

I forgot to show wat's left once KRST is filtered after an one day printing session, this shows that a lot is carried over...

This is (was) 2,5l 1+9 of work dilution.

 

[MattKing]

I think you should post that image in one of the "Is it Art?" discussion threads here on Photrio.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

I think you should post that image in one of the "Is it Art?" discussion threads here on Photrio.

Yes, under the denominator 'Arte Povera'...

 

[MattKing]

Yes, under the denominator 'Arte Povera'...

Thus, I learn more about Art in this thread than in most threads about Art.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Washing prints before selenium toning is not necessary as long as you transfer them directly from a fixing bath that is 1) not exhausted 2) the prints are fully-fixed and 3) the fixer pH is not so acidic as to react with the toner to cause stains.

Ansel Adams recommended a plain hypo second fix (sodium thiosulfate and sodium sulfite). I use Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam at the 1+9 dilution with excellent results. In the past I've used TF-4 as well as a plain hypo second fix. Both of those worked just fine when transferring prints directly from fix 2 to the selenium toner.

Different toners may require more thorough washing. Also, if you do use an acid fixer only, especially with a one-bath fixing regime, a thorough wash may be needed before selenium toning.

And, if you're getting overall yellowish stains or lots of mottling when selenium toning, your prints are likely not adequately fixed. Note that selenium toner makes a good test for residual silver compounds and is a good test for adequate fixing just like ST-1.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Just to check out: I remember to have read somewhere that preparing a KRST work dilution could be done with work dilution of Kodak HCA instead of plain water.
I can't recall where, but is it correct?

 

[MattKing]

Just to check out: I remember to have read somewhere that preparing a KRST work dilution could be done with work dilution of Kodak HCA instead of plain water.
I can't recall where, but is it correct?

You can, but it isn't recommended.
The HCA has much less capacity than the Selenium toner, so you end up having to discard Selenium toner that would otherwise still have usable life still in it.

 

[BHuij]

Thanks all for some excellent information and an enlightening discussion.

I'm almost certain that my issues were due to under-fixing (and probably insufficient rinsing prior to toning). I was going off of the TF-5 label's recommendation of 40 8x10s or film rolls per liter of working strength fixer. Although I was only at around 30 sheets on that bottle of fixer, it had visible silver floating around in it and was definitely exhausted, or at the very least too exhausted to do its job in the 4 minutes I've standardized around in my printing process.

Went ahead and mixed fresh fixer, made sure to agitate less lazily, and gave the print a good, thorough rinse after fixing and prior to toning, and didn't get any staining. I've amended my process to only allow 20 8x10s through the fixer before replacing it going forward.