Bronica GS-1 decision?

[wiltw]

Speaking of 2X converter......................? I do plan on picking either a 1.4X or 2X converter up in the future, but was curious as to which one is better optically? Most of the time the 1.4X converters beat out the 2x one, but not always. I have an off brand one I got for cheap for my Hasselblad and was amazed at how well it worked on my 250mm. Well enough that I won't be getting the 500mm Tele-Tessar unless it falls in my lap for almost nothing.

It is rare that 2X convertor will 'outperform' a 1.4X convertor, if only because any optical shortcoming of the primary lens is MAGNIFIED by the convertor and made more apparent in the photo by that magnification. It is physics which accounts for the scarcity in historical product availability of 3X convertors!

 

[Sirius Glass]

I too like the 50mm, 100mm, and 200mm set of lenses. I use the 30mm Fisheye, 38mm SWC, 50mm, 80mm, 100mm, 150mm, 250mm, 500mm and 2XE progression myself for the Hasselblad.

 

[tom williams]

Speaking of 2X converter......................? I do plan on picking either a 1.4X or 2X converter up in the future, but was curious as to which one is better optically? Most of the time the 1.4X converters beat out the 2x one, but not always. I have an off brand one I got for cheap for my Hasselblad and was amazed at how well it worked on my 250mm. Well enough that I won't be getting the 500mm Tele-Tessar unless it falls in my lap for almost nothing.

John, I went for the 2X teleconverter ahead of one or more of the longer prime lenses because of the change in filter size in the longer lenses, and the absence of good reviews for the longer lenses. I can't say I read anything outright negative about them, but reviews were rather tepid compared to the 150mm and shorter lens reviews. I also got a great price on the teleconverter, which in practice adds two additional focal lengths to my kit, for 1/4 the price of a longer FL prime. I don't have and haven't tried a 1.4X teleconverter, but I would expect it to give images somewhat superior to the 2X - for the same reason that wiltw gives in his post. But perhaps there isn't enough of a difference to get discouraged about.

 

[zerminator]

Haven't tried the teleconverters myself, but I will mention that if bag space isn't an issue, the Gs-1 200/250 are usually very affordable. The 250 is especially cheap (like <$200). I think the 200 is a touch less common (I think it is also 1yr newer?) Having to use 82mm filters for the 200 is a bit ugh, but it is not much bigger than the 150 and if you want, at this focal length you could almost certainly use a step down to 72mm ring. I had heard the 200 was a better lens which is why I bought it and squinting at the mtf, it does seem a touch better, but I doubt you'd notice in practice. At 970g, the 200mm is a lot lighter than the 1200g 250 though and that you will notice in practice.

I wish I could buy the 500, just as a collector of things. My word, that lens on paper sounds incredible (but is v rare and $2k+...)


I have the 65mm and while I do use it, I kinda find it eh to use. I think the focal length bothers me a bit. It is not very special feeling. I think the 65-100/110-150 does make sense, buuut that 50mm does seem just a bit special.

It is a bit heavier and yeah it takes 95mm filters, but I think it is one of the real gems of the system. I shouldn't look so much at mtfs but that center performance is bonkers even compared to the other PG lenses. (http://web.archive.org/web/20041206063145/http://www.tamron.com/bronica/prod/gs50.asp). I wish my copy didn't have a touch of fungus, broke my heart when I learned it couldn't be cleaned off even if it probably has no impact on performance.

But darn this whole thread has made me want to use my gs-1 more. Gah!

Stray pro-tip: Once you have a back loaded and on the camera, remove the dark slide and keep it in your bag until you need to change backs (WHY DID YOU NOT GIVE US A DARK SLIDE STORAGE SLOT BRONICA JEEEZ). The backs have 1 little flaw where they can open slightly easily if you leave the dark slide in.

 

[halfaman]

I think the 200 is a touch less common (I think it is also 1yr newer?) Having to use 82mm filters for the 200 is a bit ugh, but it is not much bigger than the 150 and if you want, at this focal length you could almost certainly use a step down to 72mm ring.

It is possible to step down the 200 mm lens filter to 77 mm without vignetting. Tried it and works. It is the diameter most of my filters have (usual in RZ67 and Pentax 67 systems I come from), so I use a step down ring 82-77 with the 200 mm and a step up ring 72-77 with the 100 mm.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Haven't tried the teleconverters myself, but I will mention that if bag space isn't an issue, the Gs-1 200/250 are usually very affordable. The 250 is especially cheap (like <$200). I think the 200 is a touch less common (I think it is also 1yr newer?) Having to use 82mm filters for the 200 is a bit ugh, but it is not much bigger than the 150 and if you want, at this focal length you could almost certainly use a step down to 72mm ring. I had heard the 200 was a better lens which is why I bought it and squinting at the mtf, it does seem a touch better, but I doubt you'd notice in practice. At 970g, the 200mm is a lot lighter than the 1200g 250 though and that you will notice in practice.

I wish I could buy the 500, just as a collector of things. My word, that lens on paper sounds incredible (but is v rare and $2k+...)


I have the 65mm and while I do use it, I kinda find it eh to use. I think the focal length bothers me a bit. It is not very special feeling. I think the 65-100/110-150 does make sense, buuut that 50mm does seem just a bit special.

It is a bit heavier and yeah it takes 95mm filters, but I think it is one of the real gems of the system. I shouldn't look so much at mtfs but that center performance is bonkers even compared to the other PG lenses. (http://web.archive.org/web/20041206063145/http://www.tamron.com/bronica/prod/gs50.asp). I wish my copy didn't have a touch of fungus, broke my heart when I learned it couldn't be cleaned off even if it probably has no impact on performance.

But darn this whole thread has made me want to use my gs-1 more. Gah!

Stray pro-tip: Once you have a back loaded and on the camera, remove the dark slide and keep it in your bag until you need to change backs (WHY DID YOU NOT GIVE US A DARK SLIDE STORAGE SLOT BRONICA JEEEZ). The backs have 1 little flaw where they can open slightly easily if you leave the dark slide in.

Yes, it's one thing I think all systems cameras with interchangeable backs should have, and that's a storage slot for the dark slide. I have several dark slides for my Hasselblad that have a slight curve to them from being tucked in a rear jeans pocket. The curve comes from setting down while they're in my rear pocket.

 

[Hassasin]

Yes, it's one thing I think all systems cameras with interchangeable backs should have, and that's a storage slot for the dark slide. I have several dark slides for my Hasselblad that have a slight curve to them from being tucked in a rear jeans pocket. The curve comes from setting down while they're in my rear pocket.

As Bronica says, remvoe the dark slide when back is mounted on camera. But I still find GS or ETRSi better than EC, where comes off with dark slide pushed in a bit. more, too easy to do. But EC had dark slide storage slot built in, a brilliant camera by just about every measure. I wish Bronica developed that line more.

 

[MTGseattle]

What's the current state of Bronica gs-1 repair/maintenance if one should need it?

 

[Hassasin]

What's the current state of Bronica gs-1 repair/maintenance if one should need it?

Looks like there are a few folks who do it, but I don't know if there is an actual service handling them. Service manuals are available though, so see of the stuff cna be at least taken apart.

I have sadly found out that weak point in the body is the electromagnet loosing stamina over time (or use, not sure) and failing to trigger shutter as result. In the day of actual factory service, electromagnet was replaced, now I doubt there is an option. Apparently some lubrication in the area helps, but not a long term fix.

This bugs me as I have two bodies, one doing fine, the other only triggers now one of the 4 lenses I have. How long the good one will last I have no idea. Will it fail when I take it out at any time? I don't know. I guess need to find one of the latest SN bodies for longer term back up.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Looks like there are a few folks who do it, but I don't know if there is an actual service handling them. Service manuals are available though, so see of the stuff cna be at least taken apart.

I have sadly found out that weak point in the body is the electromagnet loosing stamina over time (or use, not sure) and failing to trigger shutter as result. In the day of actual factory service, electromagnet was replaced, now I doubt there is an option. Apparently some lubrication in the area helps, but not a long term fix.

This bugs me as I have two bodies, one doing fine, the other only triggers now one of the 4 lenses I have. How long the good one will last I have no idea. Will it fail when I take it out at any time? I don't know. I guess need to find one of the latest SN bodies for longer term back up.

I'm curious as to where you find the serial number runs for dating your camera body?

 

[Hassasin]

I'm curious as to where you find the serial number runs for dating your camera body?

There was cosmetic update to later bodies with black buttons, and that is a telltale for getting a later one. There may be some sources with actual serial numbers for GS1, but main thing is, if shutter/film back release buttons are black, and back plate has nearly no marks from film back reattachment events, it has not had all that much use.

 

[tom williams]

Looks like there are a few folks who do it, but I don't know if there is an actual service handling them. Service manuals are available though, so see of the stuff cna be at least taken apart.

I have sadly found out that weak point in the body is the electromagnet loosing stamina over time (or use, not sure) and failing to trigger shutter as result. In the day of actual factory service, electromagnet was replaced, now I doubt there is an option. Apparently some lubrication in the area helps, but not a long term fix.

This bugs me as I have two bodies, one doing fine, the other only triggers now one of the 4 lenses I have. How long the good one will last I have no idea. Will it fail when I take it out at any time? I don't know. I guess need to find one of the latest SN bodies for longer term back up.

Hassasin, can you mention any of the folks who will work on GS-1s?

 

[Hassasin]

Hassasin, can you mention any of the folks who will work on GS-1s?

Sorry, cannot, I made that statement judging by some responses on this very forum. It seems there are some individuals who have sufficient inner knowledge to possibly make some bodies work again. I have not looked up any nor have I inquired.

In all my search (prior to first body purchase not long ago) there is very little on GS1 repairs as a whole. So I bought repair manuals just in case I need to try my own luck when I get to it. I really like the camera, shot ETRSi for several years, and GS1 in a few ways is better than Mamiya's RB67. But I have enough other cameras to play with, so at this point I have one near new GS1 body (but older build with silver buttons) and will use that until I can't. Second body is practically for parts now since it will not reliably fire a lens, except for one.

 

[MTGseattle]

Thank you for that.

 

[Steven Lee]

Hassasin, can you mention any of the folks who will work on GS-1s?

Tom, a nearly new GS-1 body without accessories can easily be found within $150-250 range. There's a couple of them on KEH. You can get three GS-1 bodies for less than a CLA from someone like Odess, Fleenor, or DAG.

It is hard to build a business servicing a platform that's so cheap to replace.

 

[Hassasin]

Tom, a nearly new GS-1 body without accessories can easily be found within $150-250 range. There's a couple of them on KEH. You can get three GS-1 bodies for less than a CLA from someone like Odess, Fleenor, or DAG.

It is hard to build a business servicing a platform that's so cheap to replace.

Problem is that it's hard to tell how long any of them will last. It seems the problem that stops them from triggering a lens' shutter is not going to be gradual.

I'm not really trying to alarm anyone, all I can do is search and read. But I also am one who owns a failing one and it is an odd case. Any discussions on GS1 issues are few and usually a short exchange at that too. Maybe there aren't a lot of actual failures, I don't know.. And so far only one case with sam symptoms and factory electromagnet exchange to get it going again. Possibly there was an and batch of electromagnets and not all bodies are doomed to fail from this.

But it is scary to know that a body can indeed fail and that could happen while away shooting with no back up option (mine is not really used that much , very slight wear on the back plate from magazine mounting).

 

[tom williams]

Tom, a nearly new GS-1 body without accessories can easily be found within $150-250 range. There's a couple of them on KEH. You can get three GS-1 bodies for less than a CLA from someone like Odess, Fleenor, or DAG.

It is hard to build a business servicing a platform that's so cheap to replace.

Excellent point. I may just take a chance on one of the KEH bodies.

I think Hassasin also has a point about the risk of buying a used body. But I am too far in to
stop nowwww... . . . . .

 

[btaylor]

Spare bodies are inexpensive and are not very heavy or bulky. A small investment to be sure all those great lenses and accessories don’t go to waste. I’ve got at least one backup body for each of my camera systems.

 

[zerminator]

Problem is that it's hard to tell how long any of them will last. It seems the problem that stops them from triggering a lens' shutter is not going to be gradual.

I'm not really trying to alarm anyone, all I can do is search and read. But I also am one who owns a failing one and it is an odd case. Any discussions on GS1 issues are few and usually a short exchange at that too. Maybe there aren't a lot of actual failures, I don't know.. And so far only one case with sam symptoms and factory electromagnet exchange to get it going again. Possibly there was an and batch of electromagnets and not all bodies are doomed to fail from this.

But it is scary to know that a body can indeed fail and that could happen while away shooting with no back up option (mine is not really used that much , very slight wear on the back plate from magazine mounting).

Ah! Yeah I wonder if the issues my Gs-1 bodies have is somewhat similar. Often they (both of them) just blink an led at me and refuse to fire, but then they seem to warm up and there is no problem at all firing. I figured maybe the batteries are just cold, but it is possible that some magnet is dying (i did not realize the bodies had magnets tbh, figured it was only in the lens). It is true that at least at the moment, the bodies are thankfully affordable, but it would be nice if repairs were possible just to keep old vintage cameras alive.

I assume in Canada, ServiceCameraPro used to service Bronicas, but they are winding down so maybe they won't anymore. http://servicecamerapro.com/e-home.html
I had an SQ back repaired by the shop DowntownCamera used (maybe it was ServiceCameraPro but I am not sure) and they did a pretty good job given that I had completely stripped a gear inside oops.

Would be neat if someone figured out a 3rd party magnet replacement. Electromagnets by themselves are likely not super expensive, but if it needs to be customized for the camera, then alas.

 

[reddesert]

Can someone explain where the electromagnet is in the body and what it fires?

I know about the electromagnet in the lens shutters. There is some good information written by Max Vettore on how the Seiko electronic lens shutters work; it was at buonaluce.com, which is not alive any more, but you can get his pdf writeups from archive.org at https://web.archive.org/web/20160109153958/http://buonaluce.com/
He writes specifically about SQ lenses, but so far as I know the lens shutters are essentially the same in the ETR, SQ, and GS lines.

 

[Hassasin]

Can someone explain where the electromagnet is in the body and what it fires?

I know about the electromagnet in the lens shutters. There is some good information written by Max Vettore on how the Seiko electronic lens shutters work; it was at buonaluce.com, which is not alive any more, but you can get his pdf writeups from archive.org at https://web.archive.org/web/20160109153958/http://buonaluce.com/
He writes specifically about SQ lenses, but so far as I know the lens shutters are essentially the same in the ETR, SQ, and GS lines.

I've got no time to post scans of manual at this moment (looks like electromagnet is in the upper part of the body though, on shutter dial side), but bottom line is the electromagnet is part of the whole shutter cycle system in the body.

Manual has clear (or clear enough) section on its replacement procedure, if you have the part, but this appears to have been done by factory service, even if I'm not sure how often it actually failed to act as needed.

For reasons probably only Bronica could explain, they went away from what SQ and ETR had in this sense and employed electromagnetic linkage instead before signal goes to shutter in the lens. Maybe it was easier to control mirror/rerar flap/shutter cycle.

 

[Hassasin]

As I've received "new" lens for GS1 , the 110 Macro, tried it on both bodies. One as expected works fine, the other that thus far has only been working with the PG 150, works intermittently with the 110. First fresh release works, second immediately after does not, then works again, and could fire a few times before it doesn't, then a crank with nothing, after which it fires again. If there's any consistency, it is one that will fire once, then surely won't on second try, then it can work, or not.

I'll look for some electromagnets (I'm assuming that is it), maybe there are some spares available, and by small chance it might be a stock item, not necessarily Bronica exclusive. If I find out, anything, on this, I'll get back here.

 

[Hassasin]

Some pages from service manual on the GS1 in body shutter release electromagnet location (part 20013110), if anyone can use it.

 

[itsdoable]

<snip> (looks like electromagnet is in the upper part of the body though, on shutter dial side), but bottom line is the electromagnet is part of the whole shutter cycle system in the body.

Some pages from service manual on the GS1 in body shutter release electromagnet location (part 20013110), if anyone can use it.

It appears that the GS1 release electro magnet is located at the bottom, next to the shutter button, and close to the mirror pre-release / mechanical release lever, which makes sense as it's releasing the same mechanism.

Electromagnets itself typically do not fail in a intermittent way, they typically either work or do not work. If it is acting intermittently, the coil is usually fine, it's the mechanical linkage or the electronic circuit supplying the current that is bad.

Electromagnets mechanically move an armature over a very short distance, so mechanically it can fail if that armature is out of adjustment (wear/loose parts) or is stiff from dried lubricant. Electrically, the circuit may have a failed component (capacitors are typical, but also cold solder joints) which causes a drop in the supplied current, reducing the force at the electromagnet. The GS1 lenses also has a delay circuit (a simple RC circuit) for timing, so that can be out of tolerance (ie; not energizing the magnet soon enough to hold the shutter open).

I should probably post this in the other current thread (Zenzanon S 80 mm lens shutter irregular) for relevancy...

 

[Hassasin]

It appears that the GS1 release electro magnet is located at the bottom, next to the shutter button, and close to the mirror pre-release / mechanical release lever, which makes sense as it's releasing the same mechanism.

Electromagnets itself typically do not fail in a intermittent way, they typically either work or do not work. If it is acting intermittently, the coil is usually fine, it's the mechanical linkage or the electronic circuit supplying the current that is bad.

Electromagnets mechanically move an armature over a very short distance, so mechanically it can fail if that armature is out of adjustment (wear/loose parts) or is stiff from dried lubricant. Electrically, the circuit may have a failed component (capacitors are typical, but also cold solder joints) which causes a drop in the supplied current, reducing the force at the electromagnet. The GS1 lenses also has a delay circuit (a simple RC circuit) for timing, so that can be out of tolerance (ie; not energizing the magnet soon enough to hold the shutter open).

I should probably post this in the other current thread (Zenzanon S 80 mm lens shutter irregular) for relevancy...

All I will say is that when Bronica still serviced these things, electromagnet in the body was changed when release was not reliably triggering.

I don't think I agree with "electromagnet either works or does not", I have seen several cases (in other devices) where it can indeed "weaken up" and not have same pull as new. Whether this was due to material changing its properties, or winding, or electrical power changing its characteristics, I don't know. They just not work as well as new, and replacement would bring it all back to spec. But this is all speculation anyways.

I can see how mechanical side could be an issue, but in my case one lens gets reliably released by that body, while 3 other get one release every few tries. If a lens does not require as much "power" to get triggered, it's possible I think this body can make it click. It's also possible that my other 3 lenses require more oomph than normal, but here I get reliable release on the second body, which works with every lens I own.