Borax purity grade

[Anscojohn]

I recall reading that because of the chemical shortages brought on by the Union blockade during the U.S. Civil War, patriotic genteel southern woman saved the urine from their chamber pots so it could be used to produce nitrates for the Confederate gunpowder factories.

John, Mount Vernon, Virginia USA

 

[Photo Engineer]

Saltpeter or Sodium Nitrate, used in making gunpowder, can be found abundantly in piles of horse manure. Since the Confederacy had no shortage of horses, I would say that story of yours is probably doubtful. Horses produce a lot more saltpeter than humans AFAIK. Well, they certainly make more manure. Hmmm, well considering this thread maybe I'll take that back.

PE

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

I was tempted to start a thread on Purity of Grocery Store Sodium Carbonate...but now that I know how these things end up, I'll resist the urge

 

[gainer]

Yes, but ours is about mule manure.

Salt petre was mined in caves above the Potomac, but which branch I can't remember, even though I was there 60 years ago. The story goes it was rolled in barrels down to the river to be transported. There is an underground river flowing into the Potomac and rapids at that point. It must have been some journey. Good water for drinking and filling my carbide lamp.

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

I found large lump of white rock in a small cave (...or perhaps it was an old mine) near the Potomac as a teenager

our best guess was that it was a lump of talc

 

[gainer]

There is a very interesting book, "Caveman Chemistry", that even a modern chemist of high degree should enjoy reading. When I find out where my grandaughter-in-law-housekeeper hid it, I'll post the author's name. You can find it on Amazon, I'm sure. It's not only factual, it's fanciful, and includes quotes from ancient instructions about how to do this or that, along with imaginary conversations among Fire, Earth, Air and Water. Each chapter has real experiments that can be done with stuff, like 2-liter plastic pop bottles, that you can find most anywhere.

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

I've heard about that....saw some cool stuff online too

http://cavemanchemistry.com/

 

[Kirk Keyes]

I found large lump of white rock in a small cave (...or perhaps it was an old mine) near the Potomac as a teenager
our best guess was that it was a lump of talc

I was in a cave (actually abandoned mine) on the west side of Death Valley and they were mining a 15 ft thick layer of talc. It had a dip angle of about 15 degrees and a lot of very large chunks of talc. It was so soft...

One of the guys exploring found a mason jar with a really bad smelling turd in it. Who knows how long it had been there! Glad I wasn't standing next to him when he opened it!!!

 

[Kirk Keyes]

I was tempted to start a thread on Purity of Grocery Store Sodium Carbonate...but now that I know how these things end up, I'll resist the urge

I'll save you the time of us hacking that one out. Patrick, Ron, and I have already done grocery store sodium carbonate - 3 years ago!

Have a look here:
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=008dQB

Enjoy!

Kirk

 

[jim appleyard]

I was in a cave (actually abandoned mine) on the west side of Death Valley and they were mining a 15 ft thick layer of talc. It had a dip angle of about 15 degrees and a lot of very large chunks of talc. It was so soft...

One of the guys exploring found a mason jar with a really bad smelling turd in it. Who knows how long it had been there! Glad I wasn't standing next to him when he opened it!!!

That's what this thread should have been all along: "How many rolls can you dev from from one smelly turd in a jar found in a cave?"

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

yikes -- you guys really did do Sodium Carbonate already

I think I need to explain the "cardboard rule"

10 years ago I was working with a mail order company...and I noticed that a lot of boxes coming from the UK and Europe were made out of very low quality cardboard. At a weekly gathering of techno-artist friends I mentioned this, and we got into a long drawn out discussion on the relative merits of American vs. European cardboard. We went on and on and on and on and on and on...and on...and on...

About a week or two later...we once again got onto the topic of American vs. European cardboard...the strength, texture...etc etc....after a while someone said "Hey...didn't we already beat this topic to death last week?...it was as boring then as it is now"

SO..we developed the Cardboard Rule....anytime someone starts talking ad nauseum about a topic that has already been analyzed far more than it deserves...someone will say "CARDBOARD"...and you have to shut up

in normal usage it is employed thusly: "Cardboard on the urine experiments"

 

[Photo Engineer]

Read the TSP thread for more information on borax and phosphates.

I'm getting fed up with bad or dangerous advice being given out!

PE

 

[efreddi]

I was tempted to start a thread on Purity of Grocery Store Sodium Carbonate...but now that I know how these things end up, I'll resist the urge

Please, don't do it or you will feel sorry for such discussions as I am now...


Elia

 

[gainer]

Read the TSP thread for more information on borax and phosphates.

I'm getting fed up with bad or dangerous advice being given out!

PE

Before you say too much more about bad advice, you should look up a few data sheets, especially MSDS dealing with borax, both 5 and 10 mol. They are not listed as highly toxic. There is nothing but discomfort resulting from accidental ingestion of as much as a teaspoonfull of the 5 mol, which is more concentrated than the 20 Mule Team spec, which is 10 mol borax until it stands in dry air a while.

The mule crap guarantees 99% to 105% equivalent of sodium tetraborate decahydrate. How can that be? Part of it may be sodium tetraborate pentahydrate due to dehydration. 291.37 grams of the penthydrate are equivalent to 381.37 grams of the decahydrate.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

The mule crap guarantees 99% to 105% equivalent of sodium tetraborate decahydrate. How can that be? Part of it may be sodium tetraborate pentahydrate due to dehydration.

I think you just answered your own question.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Before you say too much more about bad advice, you should look up a few data sheets, especially MSDS dealing with borax, both 5 and 10 mol. They are not listed as highly toxic. There is nothing but discomfort resulting from accidental ingestion of as much as a teaspoonfull of the 5 mol, which is more concentrated than the 20 Mule Team spec, which is 10 mol borax until it stands in dry air a while.

The mule crap guarantees 99% to 105% equivalent of sodium tetraborate decahydrate. How can that be? Part of it may be sodium tetraborate pentahydrate due to dehydration. 291.37 grams of the penthydrate are equivalent to 381.37 grams of the decahydrate.

Patrick;

On the TSP thread I gave the reference to the health studies done on borax compounds from boric acid to sodium borate and beyond. Kirk Keyes then published further data on toxicity.

Perhaps when you realize that these compounds are very toxic, it will then dawn on you that the MSDS may be wrong or incomplete. They are intended, for the most part, for use by emergency crews in case of spills and fires and the like.

So, do not injest borax compounds or you risk coming down with Borism or a bad case of death.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/borism

Dead Link Removed

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/borism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borax

That should give you enough to start with along with the German article noted by Kirk.

PE

 

[gainer]

I think you just answered your own question.

If you mean the part about specified percentage, you don't have a way to keep that from happening to the analytical grade every time you open the container. You have no guarantee that by the time you get the borax to the balance for weighing it will not have become partly the pentahydrate. Your safest course of action for absolute accuracy you seem to think you require would be to specify the pentahydrate, except that it is subject to taking in water from the air and becoming partly the decahydrate.

It is plain that neither you nor PE has read any of several MSDS about borax. In not one of the several I read was it stated to be of high toxicity. The ingestion of as much as a teaspoonful did not require an emergency call or trip to the ER. Try the following:
http://www.borax.com/pdfs/dist/MSDS_Borax_Decahydrate.pdf
http://www.rosemill.com/html/msds/chem_borax5_mol_msds.pdf

Bah! Humbug!

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

"Boric acid poisoning
Definition
Boric acid is a dangerous poison. Poisoning from this chemical can be acute or chronic. Acute boric acid poisoning usually occurs when someone swallows powdered roach-killing products that contain the chemical.

Chronic poisoning occurs in those who are repeatedly exposed to boric acid. For example, in the past, boric acid was used to disinfect and treat wounds. Patients who received such treatment over and over again got sick, and some died.....

Outlook (Prognosis)
For infants, the death rate from boric acid poisonings is high."


http://www.drugs.com/enc/boric-acid-poisoning.html

I'd be worried about the blue-green vomit

 

[Photo Engineer]

How I get my information

Dear all;

I am a chemist, and therefore it is implicit that I know what I'm talkiing about and how to find information about the things I say. Some people cannot do this or having done it, do not understand what the information means.

Here are 3 of my authoritative sources:

1. ACS advances in chemistry textbook - "From Borax to Boranes" which includes how Borax is mined in the US and WW. It also implicitly describes the origin of the alkali waters we see mentioned in old cowboy movies which are said to be poisionous, as it describes how the borate deposits occur in nature here in evaporating ponds.

2. Entry on Sodium Borate, Merck Index.

3. Entry on Boric Acid, Merck Index.

My library contains literally dozens of books on chemistry, physics and math. The above posts were from my own library and from the internet.

It is rather tedious to do this to dispel erronious and potentially dangerous advice given by those who think that they know a subject. I know how much this thread has been a pain to many of you and I know that some of my posts are not pleasant either. But, I would rather be a bit unpleasant and tedious than wrong and give dangerous advice.

Here is the proof for you all to inspect. They come from texts and books I used in college and well after and have served me well by their accuracy.

PE

 

[jim appleyard]

Dear all;

1. ACS advances in chemistry textbook - "From Borax to Boranes" which includes how Borax is mined in the US and WW. It also implicitly describes the origin of the alkali waters we see mentioned in old cowboy movies which are said to be poisionous, as it describes how the borate deposits occur in nature here in evaporating ponds.
PE

I alwyas wondered about those. Now I know. Thanks

 

[JBrunner]

Note to self: don't drink the developer.

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

on a lighter note -- I'll be developing film with parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme this weekend

Tri-X is in the Thyme as we speak

 

[Photo Engineer]

I would add some tomato sauce.

PE

 

[DarkroomExperimente]

I'm reserving the tomato sauce for the pizza I'm gonna cook after I finish with the film...which adds 1 step to my normal developing procedure:

(1) process film
(2) rinse film
(3) rinse photographer
(4) feed photographer

 

[Kirk Keyes]

1. ACS advances in chemistry textbook - "From Borax to Boranes" which includes how Borax is mined in the US and WW.

PE - That's the kind of nerdy book I would buy...

Anyway, does it discuss the refining of borax and aspects of grades and purity? I suspect that the difference between Pat's technical grade 20 Mule Team borax and ACS Reagent Grade borax could be something as simple as performing one more recrystallization during the refining. It could be something that simple to clean the borax up to make it a higher grade.