Blobs near the edge of developed 120 film in new tank/2 reels

michaelbothager · Jul 31, 2017

Hello All

I've taken up development again, and after getting my hands wet with a 40+ years old System 4 Universal tank and 2 old reels, I decided to get a new, modern Paterson Super System 4 3 Reel tank and four new reels .

But with the new tank/reels, I'm experiencing some odd markings near one of the negative edges (see attached).

Is that an agitation issue (I do inversions), an issue with two reels in the tank of is it the reels who are at fault?

In tried to develop two more with the old reels in the tank, and I can't see this issue with those films.

I hope somebody has previous experience, and can point me in a direction to resolve this.

Neal · Jul 31, 2017

Dear michaelbothager,

If that was the upper edge of the film on top you might not have had enough developer/fixer or both.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

michaelbothager · Jul 31, 2017

Neal said:
If that was the upper edge of the film on top you might not have had enough developer/fixer or both.

Neal, thank you.

Wouldn't too little developer/fixer in the tank mean that the top part should be underdeveloped along the edge? The negatives don't have a light patch running along the edge, only the lighter areas at the edge have these blobs/eddies. I'm just trying to understand.

I'll check if the top edge is above or below the edge of the spool.

Michael

Rick A · Jul 31, 2017

Are you are only using two reels in a three reel tank? Are you placing an empty reel on top to keep the others submerged properly? You may be getting some foaming that sticks to the upper film if you aren't using enough chemicals.

bvy · Jul 31, 2017

That's not from too little solution -- those look like foam marks. It's the same problem I had when I upgraded to the three reek Paterson tank. I wouldn't be surprised if you said you were using HC-110. It was foaming like crazy for me even with the gentlest agitation (inversion in my case). Granted, more solution at the top would alleviate (or eliminate) the problem, but I think you have coverage of the film -- and you can only fill those tanks so much above the top reel. This was the beginning of my migration to stainless steel tanks.

Check to see if your developer is foaming excessively. If so, perhaps try figure-8 agitation whereby the tank is never turned upright.

Edit 1: If you're using two 35mm reels in a three reel tank, trying using the maximum volume of solution that the tank will hold if you're not already. (I see you're using 120 though, so this wouldn't help.)

Edit 2: If your reels were previously exposed to PhotoFlo or some other drying agent and not rinsed properly, it's possible that they're retaining some of that and helping your developer to become sudsy. I've not experienced this and you say they're new reels, but somebody will inevitably mention this.

Michael W · Jul 31, 2017

There has been a thread on this before, can't recall the title, but the consensus was that these marks are caused by developer foaming. The solution is to have the top edge of the top reel low enough below the foaming developer. I have had these marks when doing 2 rolls of 120 in a Paterson 1 liter tank. I tested doing 2 120 rolls in a 1.5L tank with about 1.2L dev and there were no marks. That was Rodinal so I don't think it's specific to any particular developer.

michaelbothager · Jul 31, 2017

Rick A; 2 120 reels in the tank, yes. No space for a third reel.

bvy; it's D-76 1:1, I haven't seen any foam, but I'll try figure-8. I've been looking into steel tanks, but can't see where to buy them here in Europe... any suggestions?

I've just checked to see if it only was the top reel, but no, both reels in a single run shows the issue.

Michael

(edit, didn't wee, but See ;o) )

henpe · Jul 31, 2017

I have experienced the same kind of blobs when loading my Paterson tank with two 120-reels. I concluded that the blobs are due to foaming and have since then been very careful with the use of PhotoFlo. I now rinse the reels/tank very carefully after each use. Additionally, I have now also a 10 inch wooden stick (approx 1 inch in diameter) in my darkroom that I use to "knock" multiple times and all around the side of the tank; I do this after each agitation sequence. My thinking is that these knocks will induce "sonic waves" on the liquid surface that will either explode the foam bubbles or shake em loose from the reel, seems to work....

bvy · Jul 31, 2017

michaelbothager said:
bvy; it's D-76 1:1, I haven't seen any foam, but I'll try figure-8. I've been looking into steel tanks, but can't see where to buy them here in Europe... any suggestions?

eBay or the used market.

You might also try a "dry run" -- load a reel with film (exposed or sacrifice a roll), prepare your developer, and go through the motions as if you were developing. Then visually inspect what's happening inside the tank at various intervals. If there's bubble or foam, you should see them.

Rick A · Jul 31, 2017

Use one or two drops of Edwal LFN in your developer should the stop foaming issues. Also, use a clip or wrap a rubber band around the center core of the tank to stop the reels from climbing when inverting during agitation. If this doesn't help, switch to stainless tanks and reels.

MattKing · Jul 31, 2017

The Super System 4 tanks give you enough room to cover two 120 reels completely with developer, plus a good bit more, with room still for a bit of air. Take advantage of that.
Consider a pre-wet as well. I think it helps a bit.
Don't let your reels get close to Photo-flo. Take the film off the reels and put it into the Photo-flo loose, followed by a bit of see-saw agitation.
Make sure that you load the film past the ball bearings, so it can move slightly within the grooves of the reel.

puderse · Jul 31, 2017

Bubbles. After you invert to agitate in a film development can, bang or knock the can to dislodge the bubbles. All my NIKKOR cans have banged up bottoms from setting them down hard.

Neal · Aug 1, 2017

Hello Michael,

More liquid will push any foam up over the top of the frame. As noted above, it's not hard to check so if that is the problem you can find out easily.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

michaelbothager · Aug 1, 2017

Thank you for all your comments and suggestions, please keep them coming. I haven't had time to run a test run on Tri-X yet, with pre-soak.

I've been reading up on foam issues, and the images I've found matches my problem. I guess I have to change my agitation technique.

Just to clarify/respond to some of the suggestions.

The tank is 1 liter, holdes 2 reels of 120. The liquid covers the top reel. The top reel can not move upwards because of the Paterson design, the center rod is flush with the edge of the top reel. I always rap/tap the tank after agitation to dislodge any bubbles, three taps each time.

I've been kind of obsessed with the cleaning of reels and tank, using toothbrushes and dish brushes, and a lot of water.

I've seen the blotches on both the top and bottom film. And it's also occurred on C41 films. It doesn't occur with my very old reels, only the new ones. The design is slightly different.

I'll be trying "half-inversion" e.g. from vertical, rotate my wrist to the right to horisontal, back to vertical, and likewise to the left. I'll be turning the tank so it's not the same edge that leads and creates less repetition of the fluid movement.

Again, thank you for your help, all advice and every comment is appreciated.

Michael

bvy · Aug 1, 2017

I tackled this problem pretty aggressively last year. Did a number of tests. I won't bore you with the details, but I can distill it down to the highlights:
- Even the gentlest inversion agitation still produced foam.
- No amount of banging on the tank (bottom or side) helped.
- Presoak did nothing.
- Adding PhotoFlo did nothing.
- Adding Edwal LFN did nothing. (I bought it for this purpose based on Rick's and others' suggestion.)
- Figure 8 agitation did alleviate the issue significantly, but I think caused unevenness in other ways.

As far as adding wetting agents to developer, I would only consider it as a last resort. I wouldn't be surprised if different emulsions responded to them in different ways... And if the reels really do retain these agents, remember they're sitting in developer much longer than in a final bath.

Pat Erson · Aug 1, 2017

michaelbothager said:
Thank you for all your comments and suggestions, please keep them coming.
Michael

You might have a "foaming developer" problem because your water is much too hard. I use Kodak's D-76 (at 1+1 dilution like you) and the foam would crawl out of the top of my Paterson tank during developement. Like a bottle of cheap champagne : whooooooooosh after each agitation.

I blamed my "dirty" reels till I realized the tap water was the culprit. Now that I use distilled water to mix the D-76 powder the problem's gone and I don't have these tiny dark "holes" in my negs.

Michael and Bvy don't change anything in your gear, just think about getting a better/purer kind of water for your photo process.

michaelbothager · Aug 1, 2017

bvy said:
Did a number of tests. I won't bore you with the details, but I can distill it down to the highlights:

Bvy, thank you for the highlights.

Pat Erson said:
Michael and Bvy don't change anything in your gear, just think about getting a better/purer kind of water for your photo process.

Pat, I'm using demineralized water, either bought or tap water filtered through a filter (water softener). I thought that soft water foams more than hard water?

bvy · Aug 1, 2017

Pat Erson said:
Michael and Bvy don't change anything in your gear, just think about getting a better/purer kind of water for your photo process.

Thanks but I've never used anything but bottled distilled water. Should have mentioned that.

Pat Erson · Aug 2, 2017

Then I'm stumped!

michaelbothager · Aug 4, 2017

So, my investigation (and a ton of online reading) have me thinking the issue is air bubbles clinging to the new reels, like this

This is in demineralized water, no wetting agent. I tapped the tank 5 times hard after all the water had evacuated the funnel down into the tank.

The problem doesn't seem to be foam, which stacks the bubbles on a larger portion of the image, and not just in a single row at the edge of the frame.

Across the internet, some people are experiencing the same with Paterson Super System 4 Multireel tanks, and it seems to be solved by changing the water. So I'm ditching the (expensive) carbon-based calcium-filter, and I'll look for other options. Trying to track down where to get distilled water here in Copenhagen, Denmark.

Also, I'll be testing adding a wetting agent, as suggested by Rick A, to soften the water.

As always, any suggestions and hints are very much appreciated.

Rgds
Michael

mnemosyne · Aug 4, 2017

Here down south in Tyskland the pharmacies will happily sell you distilled water, but it will cost you an arm and a leg. In your position, I would try demineralized water first. I have very hard tap water and this demin stuff is what I use to mix my Xtol with good success and it can be bought cheaply in 5 liter packs (ca. 1.50 EUR) at the big hardware store chains like OBI and the likes. Our drugstore chains usually also have demin water available, but sometimes only smaller sizes (2 liter) which is less cost effective.

michaelbothager · Aug 4, 2017

mnemosyne said:
I would try demineralized water first

Thank you, but the sample image is with demineralized water... still lots of bubbles sticking to the reel. The water here in Denmark is a bit more expensive, approx. € 5,30 for 5 liters is the lowest price I've found.

Rgds
Michael

Tony Egan · Aug 4, 2017

I have had the same problem but only with TX400. Try a different film and compare.

michaelbothager · Aug 4, 2017

Tony Egan said:
Try a different film and compare

I have the problem with both TriX and Portra/C41. I suspect it's down to the reels and the water.

Rgds
Michael

darkroommike · Aug 4, 2017

You know that little rod that comes with every Paterson tank? Paterson recommends that you do your initial agitation with the rod. Then continue with the standard inversion agitation for the rest of the cycle.

I put a piece of rubber tubing over the end of the rod to make it easier to grip.

Blobs near the edge of developed 120 film in new tank/2 reels

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