Biting into XTOL replenishment - Benefits and Times

[JWMster]

So I've got the 2 liter bottle to begin an effort into XTOL replenishment. I've been reading up here, so I'm not looking to repeat all the same material. My Hornstein book and plenty of others seem averse to replenishment as opposed to one-use on the basis of this as a cost saving only and complicated with control issues. I get it. Upside seems to be tonality, accutance, and fine grain... and the promise that I get this in a package that develops closer to box speed than my beloved Perceptol. Have I got this right as the benefits?

If so, then it begins with setting up the usual stock solution for developing 2 batches of 1 liter each, replenish that with 235 ML of new stock XTOL and fill with 765 ML (yes, I rounded to a normal number by 1 ML), and pour each of these into the 2 liter replenish bottle. That will give a solution that is about 24% replenished with the balance used once. Of course this is a mix, but this is the point to begin using a re-mix. Ultimately using 1000ML in a stretch, the mix will stabilize with a content of roughly 12% replenished XTOL and the balance remixed. This will happen fairly quickly.

Time adjustment is the thing. My read is that Time for Normal Development will march from the STOCK time (1st use) towards the time for 1:1 mixes (stable use), and the key is then simply establishing the steps in-between. If I have this right? I can probably follow the Kodak J109 pub to determine the times. Thanks!

 

[trendland]

Hi there!
First Xtol isn't closer to box speed than your beloved Ilford perceptol.
You should see it in opposite direction.
Xtol is in the same near of box speed as 92% of all other bw chems. Like D76 a.s.o. - guess you know the others.
BUT perceptol as one of a very little group of developers has a lost of a full aperture.
The replushment rate you mentioned is correct.
And after replunisment you should use Xtol as brand new solution with same corrections as without replunisment.
After this you follow with replunishment.
I did it not because I use it as one shot.
But the rate is dedcribed. Is it after 10 films (the new replunisment ?)
An other way is permanent replunishment that means after each film
as far as I remember. BUT it is clearly described within your instruction - have a look at this again.
I wouldn't replunish without some control stripes in addition - therefore I have one shot Xtol.
It is also real real cheap from my opinium.
BUT have fun with replushment - so if you like it.

with regards

 

[freecitizen]

I have been using replenished xtol for a couple of years now. When I went up to 4x5 and 5x7 I found that the volumes of developer I needed were so large ( tray or tank/inversion ) that I could not reasonably use a developer as one-shot. Inversion in my Jobo 4x5 tank needed about 1.3 litres each time.

So I went to replenished, and can simply pour as much developer as I need into the tank and replenish using stock xtol.

I make up 5 litres of Xtol and store it in multiple glass 200ml glass bottles ( discards from the chemist ) with airtight screw-on caps ( each one filled to the brim, no air ). That way my stock Xtol stays fresh without degradation from air contact. The replenished developer is kept in a huge swing-top Grolsch beer bottle which is always filled to the top. I pour whatever is needed into the tank and develop. While agitating, I add 75 mls fresh stock xtol per roll to the bottle and when development is complete I pour the developer from the dev tank back into the big bottle until it is full, then discard any leftover developer down the sink.

The replenished brew has become very stable. I decided to get serious and dialed in my personal film speed ( for Zone I ) and development time to get a proper print value for Zone VIII as per Fred Picker's method outlined in his Zone VI Workshop book. I am getting very consistent negatives with FP4 and HP5, all formats. They generally print well at about grade 2 ( diffusion enlarger ). Sharpness and tonality are excellent. I do proper proofs at grade 2, and include a Stouffer stepwedge on each proof sheet, to see things stay on track.

Going through this process has taught me a great deal and given me confidence in the materials I use. I find I am concentrating more on making pictures, rather than having doubts of the technical variety, at the moment and I am enjoying that.

 

[trendland]

OK - so you replushment rate is 75ml fresh stock/per film (permanent rate)
it is nice to hear you made own corrections from experience.
I agree witch such methods (in general )
so I understand advices of manufacturers as basic rule too.
The rest is to find out via individual workflow. That makes also sence because the conditions in each darkroom are different and never 100% identical with the conditions of research labs from manufacturers....

with regards

 

[mshchem]

I have been using replenished xtol for a couple of years now. When I went up to 4x5 and 5x7 I found that the volumes of developer I needed were so large ( tray or tank/inversion ) that I could not reasonably use a developer as one-shot. Inversion in my Jobo 4x5 tank needed about 1.3 litres each time.

So I went to replenished, and can simply pour as much developer as I need into the tank and replenish using stock xtol.

I make up 5 litres of Xtol and store it in multiple glass 200ml glass bottles ( discards from the chemist ) with airtight screw-on caps ( each one filled to the brim, no air ). That way my stock Xtol stays fresh without degradation from air contact. The replenished developer is kept in a huge swing-top Grolsch beer bottle which is always filled to the top. I pour whatever is needed into the tank and develop. While agitating, I add 75 mls fresh stock xtol per roll to the bottle and when development is complete I pour the developer from the dev tank back into the big bottle until it is full, then discard any leftover developer down the sink.

The replenished brew has become very stable. I decided to get serious and dialed in my personal film speed ( for Zone I ) and development time to get a proper print value for Zone VIII as per Fred Picker's method outlined in his Zone VI Workshop book. I am getting very consistent negatives with FP4 and HP5, all formats. They generally print well at about grade 2 ( diffusion enlarger ). Sharpness and tonality are excellent. I do proper proofs at grade 2, and include a Stouffer stepwedge on each proof sheet, to see things stay on track.

Going through this process has taught me a great deal and given me confidence in the materials I use. I find I am concentrating more on making pictures, rather than having doubts of the technical variety, at the moment and I am enjoying that.

+1 This is how I have always run replenished XTOL. Lately I'm back to running 1 shot in the famous Jobo. Hard to beat replenished XTOL in 1/2 gallon hard rubber tanks for 4x5. or inversion in small tanks for roll films. I love XTOL and if you keep the bottle full, it will last forever. Freecitizen's advice, glass bottles are the gold standard, I have got by with PET soda bottles.
Best Mike

 

[photog_ed]

I shoot medium format, 4x5, and 8x10. For medium format I use ID-11 or Perceptol. For large format, I have settled on replenished XTOL, for the reason stated by freecitizen - it is impractical to use developer one-shot with the large quantities of solution required. This is exacerbated by my choice of using traditional dip/dunk tanks and hangers. I have a set of one-gallon tanks that will hold six hangers. Therefore I can do up to six 8x10s at once, or up to 24 4x5s with four-up hangers. I replenish at 100ml/8x10.

I start by mixing up the 5-liter package of XTOL (with distilled water) and store it in a four-liter bottle and a one-liter soda bottle. The four-liter bottle becomes the working solution, and is replenished from the one-liter bottle. When the one-liter bottle is used up, I mix up another five-liter pack as replenisher, and store in one-liter bottles.

In use, I pour the amount of replenisher needed into my mostly-empty four-liter bottle, then pour the used XTOL to top up the bottle, and pour the remainder down the drain. I do have floating lids for the tanks, but do not use them, as my volume is low. I worry about the XTOL oxidizing, as the floating lids have a significant gap around the edge. I am consistently getting good uniform negatives using the tanks and hangers method. I also have a set of single 4x5 holders and 1/2 gallon tanks for doing smaller batches of 4x5.

I am so happy with XTOL replenished this way that I am considering switching to it for MF as well, once my stock of ID-11 and Perceptol runs out.

 

[MattKing]

If so, then it begins with setting up the usual stock solution for developing 2 batches of 1 liter each, replenish that with 235 ML of new stock XTOL and fill with 765 ML (yes, I rounded to a normal number by 1 ML), and pour each of these into the 2 liter replenish bottle. That will give a solution that is about 24% replenished with the balance used once. Of course this is a mix, but this is the point to begin using a re-mix. Ultimately using 1000ML in a stretch, the mix will stabilize with a content of roughly 12% replenished XTOL and the balance remixed. This will happen fairly quickly.

Time adjustment is the thing. My read is that Time for Normal Development will march from the STOCK time (1st use) towards the time for 1:1 mixes (stable use), and the key is then simply establishing the steps in-between. If I have this right? I can probably follow the Kodak J109 pub to determine the times. Thanks!

I think I'm confused .
Just start with stock X-Tol and the stock times. Replenish at 70-80ml per roll for the first 5 or so rolls and adjust your times by 1/5 of the difference between the stock and 1:1 times. That will give you a near stable result. Monitor your results from there.
If you have a densitometer you can tweek your results more finely, but you will only see the results if you do the sort of work that depends on the accuracy and repeatability that densitometers impart - things like production copy or catalogue work.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Xtol-R is about the only "normal" developer I use now and can't think of any good reason to stop using it. I keep my working Xtol in a Boston brown gallon jug topped off and my replenisher in a collapsible wine bladder. This setup works perfect for me and I must be going on two years or more with this batch. One of the pluses going this route is that you get to re-use your developer instead of pouring a large amount down the drain. I have a Yankee multi format 4X5 tank that takes a lot of developer. I stopped using it because I cried every time I emptied the tank down the drain. Even using diluted Rodinal was a waste. Now I can use it with only losing 180ml of Xtol-R developer at a time and much less for my 120 SS tanks. Truth is, I've switched to a different means to develop 4X5 so now the tank is unused again, but if I have to use it I can without shedding a tear. Oh, and this is to "photog_ed"..............You will love it with 120 film also. HP5+ shines in Xtol-R and grain is no problem at all. Try it and you'll see what I mean. JohnW

 

[MattKing]

FWIW, as X-Tol is ascorbic acid based, using it in a replenishment regime (~75ml at a time) has a really low impact on the environment.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

FWIW, as X-Tol is ascorbic acid based, using it in a replenishment regime (~75ml at a time) has a really low impact on the environment.

HC-110 also has a low impact on the environment because of the small amount used per roll of film particularly at the higher dilutions.

 

[RattyMouse]

HC-110 also has a low impact on the environment because of the small amount used per roll of film particularly at the higher dilutions.

I always use HC-110. It's a great developer and best of all allows me to forget all about replenishment!

 

[Sirius Glass]

I did not understand the OP's replenishment amount. It should b3 70mm per 136-36 or 120 roll or 80 square inches of film.

Supposedly XTOL give a speed boost but I have never noticed.

Do not adjust the development times with replenished XTOL, use the replenishment times in the XTOL sheet ====> RTFM.

Replenished XTOL is much cheaper than 1:1 XTOL one shot. Just work out the math.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I did not understand the OP's replenishment amount. It should b3 70mm per 136-36 or 120 roll or 80 square inches of film.

Supposedly XTOL give a speed boost but I have never noticed.

Do not adjust the development times with replenished XTOL, use the replenishment times in the XTOL sheet ====> RTFM.

Replenished XTOL is much cheaper than 1:1 XTOL one shot. Just work out the math.

I set my amount of replenisher at 80ml, but that's just me. It works and I feel a little safer that way. As for speed boosting? It certainly doesn't do anything negative as far as speed goes and I rate most film close to box speed. I find I like HP5+ at around ISO/EI 640 to 800 for average scenes. Maybe there is a slight boost? JohnW

 

[Sirius Glass]

I set my amount of replenisher at 80ml, but that's just me. It works and I feel a little safer that way. As for speed boosting? It certainly doesn't do anything negative as far as speed goes and I rate most film close to box speed. I find I like HP5+ at around ISO/EI 640 to 800 for average scenes. Maybe there is a slight boost? JohnW

Replenishing with 80ml instead of 70ml is not only less economical, it is also not the optimal use of XTOL based on Kodak's extensive research. It may also alter the results.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Replenishing with 80ml instead of 70ml is not only less economical, it is also not the optimal use of XTOL based on Kodak's extensive research. It may also alter the results.

While that might be true for most Xtol-R users soup, it's not really for mine. My stock is not mixed to the same dilution as Kodak recommends so my replenishing regime is different as to the amount used also. Besides, it works perfect for me and for me that's all that counts. If it in fact alters my results then it alters them just the way I like it. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[MattKing]

Kodak suggests starting at 70ml replenishment.
The exact wording follows:
"You can replenish this developer in systems that use the
full-strength solution (not diluted developer). Use XTOL
Developer as a replenisher at a rate of 70 mL for each
135-36 or 120 roll, or the equivalent of 80 square inches
(516 square centimetres), of film processed.
You can monitor replenished systems with KODAK
Black-and-White Film Process Control Strips
(CAT 180 2990). Adjust the replenishment rate up or
down in 10 mL increments to keep the process on aim.
Allow adequate time for the process to stabilize between
replenishment-rate adjustments. Use the lowest
replenishment rate that will maintain process control. For
more information, see KODAK Publication No. Z-133E,
Monitoring and Troubleshooting KODAK Black-and-White
Film Processes (CAT 889 4784)."
Emphasis added by me.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Kodak suggests starting at 70ml replenishment.
The exact wording follows:
"You can replenish this developer in systems that use the
full-strength solution (not diluted developer). Use XTOL
Developer as a replenisher at a rate of 70 mL for each
135-36 or 120 roll, or the equivalent of 80 square inches
(516 square centimetres), of film processed.
You can monitor replenished systems with KODAK
Black-and-White Film Process Control Strips
(CAT 180 2990). Adjust the replenishment rate up or
down in 10 mL increments to keep the process on aim.
Allow adequate time for the process to stabilize between
replenishment-rate adjustments. Use the lowest
replenishment rate that will maintain process control. For
more information, see KODAK Publication No. Z-133E,
Monitoring and Troubleshooting KODAK Black-and-White
Film Processes (CAT 889 4784)."
Emphasis added by me.

Thanks Matt, that pretty well sums it up and I rest my case. As I said, 80ml works for me and I'm sticking to it. JohnW

 

[MattKing]

For clarity, well I would never discourage anyone from using process control strips and a densitometer to keep a process within narrow specifications, it doesn't make a lot of sense to acquire all that stuff if you aren't processing high volumes that need to be within commercial parameters.
Just monitor your results when you print the negatives. If the contrast wanders slightly over time, adjust accordingly.

 

[JWMster]

Thanks everyone... Matt especially for taking it seriously. I use 1 liter at a time in a Jobo 2509. With each liter then I'll adjust time until I've done 5 runs at which point I should be close enough to a dilution suitable for the 1:1 time... that we'll just run with it. Adjustment will be 1/5 of the difference between the two "known" times.
Now... I do not have a densitometer or process control strips, and if that's a requirement which frankly makes sense on one hand - especially for commercial (which I'm not), maybe I should dismiss the whole of this and run with 1-shot 1:1. But I like your "just monitor the contrast and adjust as needed" thought, and we'll try to see what happens starting down this road a little less exactingly and see if we get anywhere.

The only thing that left me wondering a bit here is whether the non-economical, non-environmental... photography negative qualities that result from use of XTOL-R are in fact what I've understood them to be. Yes I like saving money and being green and even using fairly safe materials (relative to PMK), but the results matter. Since the only response on this aspect came from the non-replenisher among us, I'm going to take my understanding of the tonality, grain and good edge acutance of XTOL-R as correct... unless someone squawks. My impression's been from reading on this site some of the longer Replenish XTOL threads that XTOL-R has these characteristics to an extent that XTOL 1-shot does not, and that it's worth trying in a side-by-side with Perceptol. Upside benefit might also gain a little film speed. So I've worked out times for different films in my inventory, speeds, etc. and we'll see what happens with a little testing... a good winter's project. (Separately, I've used Ilford's Delta 3200 with Microphen for interior family shots at Christmas and been well pleased, and though I guess I could have used HP5 and pushed it like a monster, I think starting with less of a push is a good thing. YMMV.).

 

[Ian Grant]

Xtol gives it's best results when replenished in terms of sharpness, fine grain, great tonality, and it just happens to also be the most economic way to use the developer. It's the same with D76/ID-11 these developers were designed for replenishment from their incesption, using dilute came in quite late really for small scale amateur use and is very un-economic.

Ian

 

[JWMster]

Ian: Thanks for the confirmation. I happen to have plenty of ID-11 on hand and may have to give that a shot, too.... if that doesn't spread me too thin. As a Barry Thornton fan, I guess I'm happy to follow most of his M.O.

 

[K-G]

My experience of replenished Xtol is that it takes some effort to get the system working the way you want it, but in the end it is definitely worth it.
I store the working solution in a 10 liter tank, rather wide and not to high, made of thick plastic. The measurements of the tank makes the surface/volume ratio as small as is practically possible. When I fill up the tank, I let a let a litle bit of the solution to run over before I seale it. All this contributes to keeping the exposure to air as low as possible. When preparing new solution , I also use demineralised or distilled water.
When I pour out solution for developing , I allways run it through a coffee-filter to get rid of all those small nasty particles that form after some time. From what I have seen before my filtering practice, those particles are all equiped with some kind of target finding device so they can stick on the most importan part of the negatives.
I don't remember when I started this solution, but it is more than four years ago. Now when I have figured out the aproximately best developing times, this developer keeps rewarding me with fine grained, good contrast and evenly developed negatives. That you can fill the developing tank completely in every situation is also a bonus.
Good luck with your litle tank !

Karl-Gustaf

 

[Ian Grant]

From around the time Xtol was released until I was living abroad I used replenished Xtol splitting a 5 litre pack into a 2.5 litre container of working solution and another of fresh for replenishment. It was just so easy to use, I'd been replenishing developers since the late 1960's while at school and the beauty of Xtol is it's not a separate replenisher.

I shoot mainly sheet film and batches of roll film and Xtol was great where my Jobo tank takes 2 litres for 12 sheets of 5x4 film or my Paterson tanks taking 3 or 4 120 spirals, just as easy with the odd 35mm rolls as well. Never had any issues in many years even when I used developer I'd left 3 or 4 months while abroad.

Ian

 

[MattKing]

One of the additional advantages of a replenishment regime is that it allows you to always work at normal room temperatures. If your room (and developer) temperature is somewhere between 18C and 24 C, just choose the appropriate development time for that temperature and go with it.
You can let all your chemicals and wash water stay at or come to room temperature - it is a very comfortable and dependable way to work.
I'm currently using HC-110 in a replenishment regime, because I've got a stock of the no longer made special purpose replenisher, but if I didn't have that I would immediately transfer over to either X-Tol in a replenishment regime or T-Max RS in a replenishment regime. That would give me higher effective film speed and a much less finicky replenishment calculation, but would mean that I would waste the perfectly good and dependable stuff that I've got quite comfortable with .
With respect to the differences in your negatives when you switch from one shot to replenished - they are there, but they are also subtle. Don't expect them to jump out at you. You are more likely to notice them if you print optically, do a fair bit of printing with replenishment regime negatives and then decide to print a negative from before the switch.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I get better grain, tonal and sharpness results from replenished XTOL then stock XTOL or one shot 1:1 XTOL.