Big Washer for silver printing

[Carnie Bob]

We are in the process of building a 33inch x 44 inch six slot washer for big murals, I will post as I move on this project, hope to complete in two months

 

[gordrob]

Looking at the Gravity Works 20"x24" I have here sitting in storage that is going to be a massive undertaking. It would be close to having 4 of these units set together. Good luck with the build and I am looking forward to seeing the final build.

 

[MattKing]

I'm following with interest, although I've never had an opportunity to need anything like this!
I also moved the thread to the Darkroom Equipment sub-forum.

 

[koraks]

Oh yeah, of course, I remember you inquiring into this a couple of weeks/months ago @Carnie Bob . Good to hear you've gotten started on it. Looks like a regular vertical slot print washer on a massive dose of steroids. It's going to contain, what...a metric ton of water or something?

 

[Carnie Bob]

Looking at the Gravity Works 20"x24" I have here sitting in storage that is going to be a massive undertaking. It would be close to having 4 of these units set together. Good luck with the build and I am looking forward to seeing the final build.

Yes I have a 20 x 24 Calumet washer we are kind of basing it on, this unit when empty would be put on 4 x 4 or 6 x 6 blocks and drain to the floor drain.

 

[Carnie Bob]

I'm following with interest, although I've never had an opportunity to need anything like this!
I also moved the thread to the Darkroom Equipment sub-forum.

thanks Matt

 

[Carnie Bob]

Oh yeah, of course, I remember you inquiring into this a couple of weeks/months ago @Carnie Bob . Good to hear you've gotten started on it. Looks like a regular vertical slot print washer on a massive dose of steroids. It's going to contain, what...a metric ton of water or something?

So we figured that we would be around a ton in weight when filled with water , therefore the unit will have castors to move when empty but when ready to use it will be lifted onto huge blocks to hold the weight.

 

[koraks]

it will be lifted onto huge blocks to hold the weight.

I figured that's where the 4x4's came in (?)

Nice; would love to see some photos of how it progresses. It'll be the biggest print washer I'll probably never get to see in real life!

 

[Rick A]

So we figured that we would be around a ton in weight when filled with water , therefore the unit will have castors to move when empty but when ready to use it will be lifted onto huge blocks to hold the weight.

I used your dimensions and figured 20 inches wide and came up with just over 1100 pounds of water at 70F. I actually plugged in 34x45x20 inches. Then you add the weight of materials and you're still under 3/4 ton. Impressive undertaking to say the least.

 

[Carnie Bob]

I got my idea from a Clyde Butcher video , one of his assistants was using a big vertical washer next to the sink. for the life of me I could never find that video . We are going to McGuiver this one
I think at the end of the day it will be around 2-4 k to make happen, its worth it to me as I do have clients asking for murals 30 x 40 but I have been hesitant as I can only at this time horizontal wash big prints and
it takes forever to do this and wastes water and energy to heat the water.

 

[Carnie Bob]

I used your dimensions and figured 20 inches wide and came up with just over 1100 pounds of water at 70F. I actually plugged in 34x45x20 inches. Then you add the weight of materials and you're still under 3/4 ton. Impressive undertaking to say the least.

Yes it won't be pretty but it will be solid, if not I will have a lot of mopping up to do in the darkroom- I figure it will be 34 x 45 x 16 inches , we will be using 1/2 inch plexi on the inside to separate the prints

 

[fgorga]

Have you taken into consideration the load bearing capabilities of the floor in the location where you will site this monster?

Placing the washer on the 4x4 supports (and thus concentrating the weight there) will make the floor issue more important to consider.

Interesting project. Especially to those of us who consider a 16x20 inch print huge!

 

[Rick A]

You get a brief glimpse of the print washer at around 3:20.

 

[mshchem]

Make sure you don't punch through the concrete floor.

 

[mshchem]

Too late now. I always wanted to build 3 or 4 narrow tanks, set up to cascade. Dip and dunk 2 sheets per chamber, start on the lower and work gradually upstream. I've seen parts washers like this.

 

[Erik L]

Yes it won't be pretty but it will be solid, if not I will have a lot of mopping up to do in the darkroom- I figure it will be 34 x 45 x 16 inches , we will be using 1/2 inch plexi on the inside to separate the prints

Looks like a daunting project Bob! You can get casters that will hold the weight no problem. I used to roll around 3000 pounds of clay on a rack I built on a set of four 8 inch casters. The casters were steel with hard rubber like ring. Worked great on uneven concrete but would come to a halt if you hit a pebble.

1/2 inch plexiglass for the dividers is way overkill I would think. I think you could use 1/4 inch no problem as it’s fairly rigid especially in a vertical orientation And would cut your weight in half. Just spitballing here, good luck with it!

 

[Mr Bill]

Yes I have a 20 x 24 Calumet washer we are kind of basing it on, this unit when empty would be put on 4 x 4 or 6 x 6 blocks and drain to the floor drain.

Hi, I would suggest to keep in mind that things like this don't scale up directly. (The same reason that ants have proportionally skinny legs compared to elephants.) So your outer frame, holding the sides together, should probably be more robust than directly scaling up.

Also, instead of setting it on blocks why not just use a wooden pallet? If your floor supports the use of pallet jacks this is a convenient way to move it around.

FWIW I would estimate the total weight closer to 1,000 lbs. Maybe a bit more depending on the frame. Roughly the weight of 6 or 8 husky guys squeezed close together. I have no idea what your building was built for, but it might be worth going to a lower floor and having a look at the structure (assuming you can see the ceiling). This might affect where you would locate your washer?

 

[Mr Bill]

I always wanted to build 3 or 4 narrow tanks, set up to cascade.

This is actually the way commercial processing machines (continuous type) were built back in the day. (So you were on the right track.)

For example in a paper processor the roll of paper is being fed into a first ("dirtiest") wash tank. That first tank is being "replenished" by the overflow cascading from a second ("cleaner") wash tank.

The paper continues to be fed into the second wash tank which in turn is "replenished" by the overflow cascading from a third (even "cleaner") wash tank. The "cleanest" tank is being fed with fresh water at a controlled rate, which depends on the rate of the paper feed.

It's generally referred to as a counter-current flow system, as the flow of the "replenished" goes opposite to the "flow" of the paper (or film). And it is far more efficient, with respect to water "saving," than a single tank.

The Kodak Z-130 manual for RA-4 processing gives recommended wash rates (volume of water per area of paper). See table 2-2, for example. For a single wash tank they recommend a flow rate of 1,000 ml/square ft paper. With two counter-current tanks the flow rate goes down to 600 ml; with a third tank flow down to 400 ml. Etc.

Now, an 8x10" print has area about 55% of a square foot so the wash water flow would be similarly reduced. Meaning if one's processor had three counter-current flow wash tanks, the water usage per 8x10" print would be 55% of 400 ml = 222 ml. This probably bears repeating - under the specified conditions of table 2-2, with 3 counter-current flow wash tanks, an 8x10 inch color print is fully washed with only 222 ml of fresh water, about a half-pint.

Now, a regular home user should not attempt to go this low - the continuous processing machine will be using squeegees between each tank and the motion of paper combined with water flow supplies enough agitation. AND... the professional lab has done the appropriate tests to confirm adequate washing.

 

[Carnie Bob]

Have you taken into consideration the load bearing capabilities of the floor in the location where you will site this monster?

Placing the washer on the 4x4 supports (and thus concentrating the weight there) will make the floor issue more important to consider.

Interesting project. Especially to those of us who consider a 16x20 inch print huge!

Concrete floor in basement

 

[Carnie Bob]

Hi, I would suggest to keep in mind that things like this don't scale up directly. (The same reason that ants have proportionally skinny legs compared to elephants.) So your outer frame, holding the sides together, should probably be more robust than directly scaling up.

Also, instead of setting it on blocks why not just use a wooden pallet? If your floor supports the use of pallet jacks this is a convenient way to move it around.

FWIW I would estimate the total weight closer to 1,000 lbs. Maybe a bit more depending on the frame. Roughly the weight of 6 or 8 husky guys squeezed close together. I have no idea what your building was built for, but it might be worth going to a lower floor and having a look at the structure (assuming you can see the ceiling). This might affect where you would locate your washer?

We have considered the outer shell and how it needs to be robust.
the 4 x 4 pallets are to fit precisely under the unit, no room for pallet jacks and pallet
It is on the lower basement floor we will make sure its not over the floor drain channels
we plan to roll it into place (empty) right next to the sink , when finished drain and move to a less important location.

 

[chuckroast]

You get a brief glimpse of the print washer at around 3:20.

I love his work. I am disappointed, however, that he didn't have giant tongs

 

[mshchem]

Here's another approach Horizontal in a big sink.

 

[Carnie Bob]

Ok so I now have delivery of the washer needs to be put together , this will same us time and water usage, 6 slot for 34 inch x 44 inch silver prints.

 

[chuckroast]

Here's another approach Horizontal in a big sink.

View attachment 368898

Oh the memories.

Many years ago, I lived in Chicago. Darkroom Aids was an absolute toy store for photographers. Beyond the usual new stuff like paper, chemistry, lenses, sinks, etc., they were an absolute goldmine of all things used for the the darkroom. I bought my push-up Omega DII with a 150mm Schneider Componon, Lens cone, and carrier for $300 there ! Better still, they had a wall mount turnbuckle for it. I still use it to this day. I also bought an 8 foot stainless sink from them, and the store manager delivered it to my home. That is still in use today as well, though nowhere near Chicago.

Terry G. ran the place and was a walking encyclopedia of all things darkroom and all things Sinar. (He was also an active shotgunner.) When DA shut down it was a dark, dark, day. It was the last of the great darkroom-focused stores anywhere for a thousand miles. It was THE place to go hang around with other darkroom nerds, pros, and people that just plain loved the craft. I bought my first M645 used from them and used it for some years before upgrading to a 'Blad.

Terry went on to work at Calumet until it folded up as well.

Many of these things can still be found on line at various company websites and eBay, but there's nothing that replace the "hanging around" ethos found at places like Darkroom Aids.

Thanks for the memory

 

[koraks]

Ok so I now have delivery of the washer needs to be put together , this will same us time and water usage, 6 slot for 34 inch x 44 inch silver prints.

You're going places!!