Big prints; propagation trays and paper rolls...

Dear Grant;
the thought occurred to me to ask if you are using the same paper that you have always used? The reason for asking is that I once used a paper that was developer incorporated and the results were also mottled but only in the shadow areas. Have you changed papers lately? Also I never develop for less than 5min and my method for the troughs I use, is to take two 3in diameter, smoothly sanded PVC pipes, 38in long and place one in the trough and roll the paper around the other pipe and then into the developer. I then roll the print in the developer, onto the empty tube and when I reach the end I reverse the procedure and this continues for the 5min development time, then the print is held vertically to drain, then into the rinse tray and the same procedure takes place for 3min and then into the fix for 10min, using the same rolling procedure. This method results in many less damaged prints from creasing, denting and scratching and ensures very even development and makes it possible for one person to manage some very large prints. Needless to say your safelight illumination must be truly safe for the prolonged process.
Denise Libby

So, for those who make big prints, why is it that on small prints, stop bath can be a good thing, but on large prints not? Somethings's not adding up for me. I'm wondering if the development is just incomplete and the developing time needs to be bumped up to four or five minutes. It sounds like underdevelopment to me. Not any issue with stop bath.

Actually, if scrolled at the appropriate rate of 3-4 cycles per minute you're getting as much or more agitation as a flat print rocked in a tray. Because I like control over development time and since I like to conserve my fixer and use it to exhaustion, stop is a necessary component to this process - I have no idea what possible advantages there are to not using it. I'm assuming that by now Grant has checked a bit of his mural paper by tray processing an 8x10 sheet of it. I'd guess that the print streaking and mottling is due either to an over-concentrated stop bath, contaminated developer, or bad agitation technique...quite possibly all three.

I have made many large and small prints and I have used stop bath for every single print.
I cannot see a good reason for not using it, I believe the stop is critical in any process, try making a lith print without stop and you will get horrendous mottling and uneveness.

This is a long thread , with lots of responses so I am a bit lost now a few things,*am I correct to think that Grant is using a single trough for all the chemicals?*, if so I can see mottling happen with the duration between dev and stop.

The key for me when making murals is lots of chemistry that the roll sits in, with sufficient scrolling to move the dev on the paper, I use just under 4 minutes.
Then a quick acid stop bath to stop immediately any more development
I will scroll the prints through a Fix bath, then turn on lights and lay the prints in a monster tray to do final second fix.

Considering the price of paper , I think generous amounts of chemistry is a good thing.

CBG said:

So, for those who make big prints, why is it that on small prints, stop bath can be a good thing, but on large prints not? Somethings's not adding up for me. I'm wondering if the development is just incomplete and the developing time needs to be bumped up to four or five minutes. It sounds like underdevelopment to me. Not any issue with stop bath.

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Hey guys, thanks again for all the interest and support. A little background info to clear up some questions: My paper is good old Ilford MGFB glossy. It's the same I've always used but this is a new roll. I hadn't seen the mottling in test strips so presumed that was enough evidence that it wasn't faulty, but I'll do an 8x10 black out test piece to make it official. I'm using 4 troughs, not one, so my only lag time is waiting for the previous troughs' chemistry to run off. On the topic of an acid stop as opposed to water, on small prints I've never really used it as we could all use a little less toxic chem in our lives, although I'm sure in certain applications it's a different story. I actually first used stop instead of water years ago when I was first making mural prints as I had heard it was a good idea in order to avoid streaking from edge-contact overdevelopment, but if we're really processing to completion here it shouldn't be an issue. At any rate, the most concentrated stop I've used throughout this quagmire was 1+19. Denise, it's good to hear that others have used times up to 5 minutes as that's my main hope today. Richard, I also like the concept of the same developer staying on the surface and not getting completely changed out so I'll be extra observant on that front and also use more dev than ever before. To those reading this contemplating taking on mural printing for the first time, it's really not this much of a pain, I promise, just having some bad luck here.

Success! With twice the developer and 6 minutes of development time it finally turned out. I'm thinking I might have a batch of paper that's slightly slower to develop and I was right on the threshold with former rolls. Things to take away: Don't be stingy, it'll end up costing you more, and there's nothing wrong with spending a little more quality time with your favorite developer. Thanks to everyone with so much experience that had patience with me.

Really happy to see things worked out. I know the frustration when there is a screw up. Don't ever blame yourself. ;<)

archer, thanks for posting those pictures. This thread has become a great resource for making large prints.

Here is an update as to where I am going. I am going through a 50 sheet box of 16x20 paper and realizing only a small percentage of my negatives will work at very big sizes. I have re-thought the scrolling method and that may indeed be best for me. I also just picked up a high quality set of graduated Leedal stainless mixing buckets from one liter up to 4 liters in size.

Glad to hear you're figuring it out. However, six minutes in the developer is a very long time. I've seen fogging set in at times greater than 5' in 68 degrees. As long as you were using at least a gallon of working dektol than your problems were not the result of being stingy with chemistry. Inadequate development coupled with the fact that you had clean test strips clearly points to a problem in your agitation/scrolling technique with the mural sheet. Remember to always wipe down the leading edge of the roll before beginning another scroll cycle so as to replenish the roll with fresh chem.

Somehow these small amout of chems do not make sense to me and I believe that problems will rear their ugly heads by being too conservative with the level or height of chem that is in the trough or trays. I use troughs for digital fiber as it is in total darkness and large trays for enlarger fibres because I can use a safelight .
Also Development time of over 4 minutes is dicey as well .
My experience with rolling large prints tell me that one gallon is not enough to make murals. Sure you may get one if you are really scrolling tightly and lucky.After that the dev will be dicey and I can only imagine the kinks on the paper due to trying to scroll in a very little amout of dev.

Practical Financial Realitys- When making murals I have minimum 25 litre of dev = 6.5 gallons of Dev.
Even then if I am going to spend the day I am probably upping that to 35 litre with at least 4-6 litres of replenisher on hand to replenish after each large sheet.
This may sound like crazy costs but I am billing each mural out mounted toned , at aroung 3-$400 a print.
I can do around 4 to 8 per day which basically makes the cost of chemistry very little . therefore I would advise anyone making murals to gang up the work, use a helper and try to get enough prints done that allows you to forget about the cost of chems.
I admire those that do make murals , but skimping on chemistry IMO only adds to more rejected prints due to unforseen problems.

Tips-Lots of Chemistry, Replenish, proper room temp, Do not dilute chems, gently scroll , use a good stop bath, use a double fix, hypo clear,tone and wash as normal, give yourself lots of time and try to make space before exposing paper.
Washing - can be the killer if you get too greedy with making big prints, after a long wonderful day you still have the problem of making sure each print is well washed, therefore planning a day is mandatory as well having a good helper in the room will make life much easier.

Development-I try to keep my time around 3 min 30 seconds, the first scroll should be within the first 20 seconds, I always wear gloves and hold the paper very gently in the first two scrolls, after this I am twisting the paper form the very edges** I leave at least 1-2 inch space on both ends of the papers for my fingers to grasp and scroll the paper.


When using Trays rather than scrolling and in Safelight.

A trick which works like magic. Have hot water or developer near the dev tray . As the print emerges and as a compentent worker you are looking at the print, you should be able to see any emergency areas that will require more development , dip a sponge in the hot water/chem and paint that area in slightly, this will save the day , in certain situations.
This is a method that quite a few printers use to good use.

frotog said:

Glad to hear you're figuring it out. However, six minutes in the developer is a very long time. I've seen fogging set in at times greater than 5' in 68 degrees. As long as you were using at least a gallon of working dektol than your problems were not the result of being stingy with chemistry. Inadequate development coupled with the fact that you had clean test strips clearly points to a problem in your agitation/scrolling technique with the mural sheet. Remember to always wipe down the leading edge of the roll before beginning another scroll cycle so as to replenish the roll with fresh chem.

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Hi, Bob,

Other than how we're scrolling the print, chemistry volume seems to be the big divergence in our technique. In defense of one shot - I've never had any problems with using small amounts (read one gallon working) of chemistry - no uneven development, no crimps, etc. In fact, to the contrary, I find that with higher volumes of chem there's more drag and that the weight of the chem in the roll produces more of an occasion for crimping in addition to a slower scroll. Also, since I'm hand washing the same way I process, I like to go right through the final wash and hang up to dry before moving on to the next print. I've found that the longer a mural stays wet the greater the chance it'll crimp when handling and the less flat it'll dry. Keep in mind that this is partially due to space constraints as I'm using a standard 11' drkrm. sink and there's no room for more than two mural troughs and guys in orange jumpsuits to wash my prints for me. I mention this because my setup probably resembles the home user's setup more than your commercial photo finishing outfit.