Big prints; propagation trays and paper rolls...

frotog · Mar 3, 2010

Savings on a roll of ilford RC is approx. 20% that of the same amount in sheets. Diversified and minilab supply often run specials on rolls that are still fresh. And then there's ebay. Savings on c-print paper are even greater especially if you buy consumer papers. I've been experimenting with DNP A9 paper since they've discontinued supra in rolls. It's less than half the price of Supra. It looks kinda yucky compared to the old Supra though.

Anon Ymous · Mar 3, 2010

frotog said:
Savings on a roll of ilford RC is approx. 20% that of the same amount in sheets...

Interesting, but where do you get the rolls from?

ic-racer · Mar 3, 2010

I guess not much savings.
Rough calculations based on some B&H searches:

250feet of 8" Ilford = $150 = 300 sheets 8x10 = 50cents/sheet
box of 100 8x10 = $55 = 55cents/sheet

frotog · Mar 3, 2010

Wow...looks like the 8" roll is not the way to go. I usually purchase the 11" x 250' roll. B and H sells it for 195. A box of 50 sheets 11x14 goes for $60. So the savings are actually 25% if you're working in 11x14. The cool thing about the 11" roll is that you can cut 8.5" x 11" out of it for contact sheets. Have not checked price for 8.5x11 though I would not be surprised if the savings were even greater than that of 11x14. Of course without a roll paper cutter or a roll paper easel the PITA factor sort of kills the appeal of saving a bit of cash. But as I've mentioned in previous posts the deep savings are in ra4 materials and b/w mural materials off of ebay.

jamusu · Mar 4, 2010

richard ide said:
Jamusu,
You have to use rolls for larger prints.

For prints larger than 24x20? I could never understand why the paper does not crease after it has been rolled up. Is it made differently?

Jamusu.

Bob Carnie · Mar 5, 2010

After about one minute in the dev the paper is like a wet noodle.
I roll from the edges from the beginning not to touch anywhere near the live image area.
The paper likes being rolled , as this is how it comes from the factory, the trick is to get the motion started and it is easier done than I may be explaining it to you.
Even when I use monster trays , I still roll the print at the end stages to remove from one tray to the other.
When using monster trays I will drag the print emulsion up, from the dev > Stop> first fix.. After the room lights are on the paper is very easy to handle.
If you have gorrilla arms like Bill Schwab the moving of prints is much easier as he is tall and his knuckles drag on the ground which makes it very easy to handle the prints.
For normal people like me with normal length arms it is much more difficult handling large pieces of wet paper.

jamusu said:
For prints larger than 24x20? I could never understand why the paper does not crease after it has been rolled up. Is it made differently?

Jamusu.

grantd · May 20, 2010

late to the party

I realize this thread is old but I've found myself in a sticky situation and I'm not sure where else to ask. I've been making 40x50s from 8x10 negs for quite a while and just started up again after about a year hiatus during which I managed to lose my printing notes. I'm getting this ugly mottling in the large black areas of my prints that I'm assuming is a development consistency issue. I'm basically using the same set up but added stop as opposed to plain water as an extra precaution and have my developer 1+14 (silvergrain's tektol black). I'm not sure what to make of it as I'm doing the same trusty trough scrolling maneuvers I've always done and while I've had a couple developer streaking issues in the past they were always at more concentrated solutions and were solved by diluting it more to slow things down. I'm at my wits end here and am worried I'll waste another enormous piece of paper and my back with trial and error. Other factors that might be significant but haven't caused problems in the past are that the water temp is in the low 60's (F) and that I've been scrolling them for 4 minutes or even longer fearing that I'm underdeveloping. Help!

DanielStone · May 20, 2010

Hi Grant,

I'd definitely get your developer temp up. Are you using enough chems to properly cover the print, with a tad extra, just for good measure ?

-Dan

grantd · May 20, 2010

Hi Dan,
Thanks for the reply. I've been using just a thin layer of chemistry as described by some previously in the thread, as it makes the difference between 2 gallons and oh maybe 8. It's been fine in the past and is actually much easier to roll the print in. As for the developer temp, this whole time I've been obsessing over slowing down the development process in order give it a chance to be more even, but do you think maybe I've gone to far in the other direction?

frotog · May 20, 2010

You'll get even development - no need to bring temp down. I've worked with temps up to 75 degrees f. You should complete a scroll cycle in under 30" (for a 60" wide print my time is around 20"). I like to hold the print in the ctr of the scroll rather than the edges as some people have described. It's so much easier this way (no need to break your back) and if you use a gentle touch you will not crimp the print.

Nicholas Lindan · May 20, 2010

grantd said:
slowing down the development process in order give it a chance to be more even, but do you think maybe I've gone to far in the other direction?

Paper development is done to completion. If you have mottling it is because development isn't complete. If you use very dilute/cold developer it may never get even no matter how long you develop.

You want to speed your development up to normal - 68-72F and use the developer at standard dilutions like Dektol @ 1:2 (and no more dilute than that). Develop for four minutes - that is one minute over 'standard' and will give an ooch more contrast but it will assure evenness.

richard ide · May 20, 2010

I fully agree with Nicholas. I processed hundreds of prints with no problems. I would use enough developer to give me at least an inch of chemistry depth. More if I was printing a lot from one batch of developer.

Bob Carnie · May 20, 2010

I use dektol 1:1.5 process time 3min 30 secs, when I am making murals and rolling I use upwards 30 litres per chemistry.

All fresh

frotog · May 20, 2010

It's weird that you were experiencing streaking in your prints and now mottling. Are you making sure your chem. is well mixed before processing? Also, when using smaller amounts of chem. (like a gallon of working for a 40x50 print) use the dev. and stop as a one shot. A critical step to this process is to run your hand all the way across the leading edge of the paper so as to ensure that fresh developer is moving across the emulsion as you scroll. Do this each time you get to the end of your scroll. I use different dilutions of dev., time and different temps to suit the print I'm trying to make.

frotog · May 20, 2010

...oh yeah, and best to error on the side of a more dilute stop bath.

archer · May 21, 2010

Dear Grant;
over the years I've made hundreds of mural size prints and the only time I ever got mottling was when I used an acid stop bath. I use water after development and am pretty thorough in rinsing before fixing. As my current darkroom is pretty small, I limit my print sizes to 40X60 inches and the older I get the harder it is so I really take my time and the extended time in processing these large prints hasn't been a problem so far. Getting old sure doesn't come alone!
Denise Libby

ic-racer · May 21, 2010

archer said:
Dear Grant;
over the years I've made hundreds of mural size prints and the only time I ever got mottling was when I used an acid stop bath. I use water after development and am pretty thorough in rinsing before fixing. As my current darkroom is pretty small, I limit my print sizes to 40X60 inches and the older I get the harder it is so I really take my time and the extended time in processing these large prints hasn't been a problem so far. Getting old sure doesn't come alone!
Denise Libby

Hi archer,

"Hundereds of mural sized prints" fantastic! Can you post a picture of what ever type of tray or trough you are using?

Thanks

grantd · May 21, 2010

Thanks everybody for all your suggestions. I'm going to give it another go today and will report back. I'll definitely be bringing my developer up to a normal temp. I think archer might also have something with the stop bath as that's the only thing that's changed significantly since my last round of successful printing. I've always used water but I thought I'd be extra cautious this time and look where that got me. I wish I could go about testing these variables one by one to find the cause but time and money are bearing down. Oh and ic-racer, I was about to buckle down and be forced to fabricate troughs but I finally found some that work. They are plastic shipping containers for use in dividing up a pallet I believe. I found them through grainger, but the ones I have are manufactured by Buckhorn. Light yet sturdy enough and perfect for a 42" roll with some wiggle room on either end.

frotog · May 21, 2010

Save your fix and use a dilute stop not a water stop especially with a print this massive. A lot of folks can get a little reckless with kodak indicator stop by putting a dash or more into a tray filled with water. Best to measure it out.

grantd · May 21, 2010

Well folks I have unfortunate news. I implemented just about every suggestion here to no avail. The same softly mottled blacks as before. Developer was a precise 70 degrees at normal suggested dilution (from a fresh liquid concentrate so no mixing issues or oxidation) for 4 minutes on the dot with a pure water stop. I'd suspect the paper if I had these issues in test strips but I don't and the problem seems concentrated towards the middle of the scroll. Later I even tried presoaking the paper. I'll certainly try a dilute stop bath next time but based on the fact that full stop bath and a water stop both had the same results I have to conclude that wasn't the issue. The only idea I can think of at the moment is to develop for an absurdly long time and that's seeming a bit desperate.

ic-racer · May 21, 2010

Do you have enough developer for the surface area of what you are processing?

grantd · May 21, 2010

Yep, I'm afraid so. I've been using the same amount that's always worked, and even tried doubling it to no effect.

richard ide · May 21, 2010

A couple of ideas:
Make sure that there is sufficient chemistry on the surface of the paper when rolling. There should be enough to completely mix with what is on the print surface when rerolling. From your description of what is happening; I think this may be your major problem.
My tanks were 24 x 76 x 8. I developed for 3 minutes with the developer I was using.
I would roll from one end to the other in about 10 - 15 seconds for a 6' print and then reverse direction. I did RC prints up to 16' long also with no problems.
I used acetic acid stop and do not see how this could be an issue.

frotog · May 22, 2010

have you tried tray developing a small bit of the paper you're using?

archer · May 22, 2010

Dear ic-racer;
The troughs I use, I made from 10in diameter PVC with PVC end caps and a 3/4in drain and are 50in long and 4 1/2in deep. I used PVC glue across the bottom to form smooth ridges that keep the paper from sticking to the bottom when rolling. I think the troughs cost about $15 to make, but that was thirty years ago. I'm including some not too good pictures that I just took with a d****al thingamabob.
Denise Libby

Big prints; propagation trays and paper rolls...

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