Big prints; propagation trays and paper rolls...

richard littlewood · Feb 18, 2010

I often make 30x40's, and use a single tray. I find it easy. Dev, stop and fix are each in their own buckets on the floor, and I pour over the dev, agitate like mad (usually 5l of fluid) and this is no problem with a 3min dev, on nearly 3 mins get hold of the tray and pour the dev back into it's bucket, then relax a bit when the stop is poured in. Same thing, stop back in the bucket then pour over the fix. Sometimes I'll move the tray under the tap for a water rinse at some point.
Never had a problem with streaks, I like watching the print as it develops, and after the fix has gone, I can rinse the print with as many changes of water as I want, turning it over to make sure all the sticky fix is washed off. The real wash comes later, and the print goes into another big 'holding' dish while I do another.
Only drawback in doing this is it's a pretty physical thing, but another advantage is that toning can be done the same way.

jamusu · Feb 18, 2010

Bob Carnie said:
Do you notice four troughs dev, stop fix , fix I would imagine.
the big burning in card is cool,
In my setup the prints would not be made horizontally but vertically which I think is easier.
40x60 and above would be done horizontally.

Thats pretty much how I roll the prints , make sure to hold on the sides.

Bob.

I have watched "War Photographer" in entirety on numerous occasions and make it a point to view this scene specifically at least once or twice a week for inspiration because I one day hope to make enlargements of this magnitude, but have few years to go because I have yet to go larger than 11x14.

Oddly enough, I had never noticed the other 3 troughs until you pointed them out. I guess it has to do with the fact that your eye is trained and you automatically knew to look for them.

Not to get off subject, or to hijack the thread, but I have read that sometimes printers use an alternating water bath and developer technique to develop prints. If true, what is the purpose, and have you ever developed a print in this manner when making large enlargements?

Jamusu.

Bob Carnie · Feb 18, 2010

Les Mclean uses a water bath and hot second developer at times beside the main tray , he showed me his method a few years back.

For murals I have a hose running up to the tray with extremely hot water available and a monster sponge.

If I am working on a print and I want to accelerate local development I will take the print and lay flat the print emulsion up in the dev. I will wear a couple of gloves so I can handle the heat and charge the sponge with heated water .
I will then use the sponge much like a burning tool and then immediately agitate the paper so as not to see my work show up as clumsy.

Much like bleach retouching , which Les showed me as well. (He uses lots of water and weak ferri and builds up very slowly and delibertly. Just make sure you are fast and move the chems on the print quickly after the bleach has been laid down.

I will with difficult negatives supplied by clients modify my dev and agitation technique in the dev.

Strong contrasty negs/scenes I will slow down my agitation and flat /low contrast scenes I will sometimes enhance my agitation method.
This basically satisfy's my momentary impulse to throw out a print, I am not sure how effective this is as with all jobs I give my clients a couple of prints to choose from , or at least I make the choice from a couple of variations.

sanking · Feb 18, 2010

ic-racer said:
I found this 27" x 30" tray for $20 USD at Home Depot. It even has a flat area to place a spigot.

I think I will have enough room for 4 of these trays on my existing countertops.

In what section of Home Depot did you find this large tray? It looks about perfect for a printing project I have in mind.

Sandy King

ic-racer · Feb 18, 2010

sanking said:
In what section of Home Depot did you find this large tray? It looks about perfect for a printing project I have in mind.

Sandy King

Hi Sandy,

That thing goes under a washing machine. They had two styles, $18 and $20. That is the more expensive one. I filled it with one and one-half gallons and there was no problem, even with it overhanging my counter top.

PVia · Feb 18, 2010

Are those trays very sturdy or pretty flexible? It's very hard to lift and pour if they're flexing all over...

djhopscotch · Feb 18, 2010

PVia said:
Are those trays very sturdy or pretty flexible? It's very hard to lift and pour if they're flexing all over...

The ones i have found are pretty flexible, but the walls are strong enough to put a spigot in to drain them.

ic-racer · Feb 18, 2010

I't will only work for me with a spigot. It is too flexible with anything more than about a liter. I'm looking now for a spigot. I'll post one when I find it.

A search for "Water Crock Spigot" turns up a lot of possibilities.

djhopscotch · Feb 18, 2010

ic-racer said:
I't will only work for me with a spigot. It is too flexible with anything more than about a liter. I'm looking now for a spigot. I'll post one when I find it.

I found them at TAP plastics, they can even put them in for you. Not sure if they are only in CA though.

Martin Aislabie · Feb 18, 2010

Bob Carnie said:
Les Mclean uses a water bath and hot second developer at times beside the main tray , he showed me his method a few years back.

For murals I have a hose running up to the tray with extremely hot water available and a monster sponge.

If I am working on a print and I want to accelerate local development I will take the print and lay flat the print emulsion up in the dev. I will wear a couple of gloves so I can handle the heat and charge the sponge with heated water .
I will then use the sponge much like a burning tool and then immediately agitate the paper so as not to see my work show up as clumsy.

Much like bleach retouching , which Les showed me as well. (He uses lots of water and weak ferri and builds up very slowly and delibertly. Just make sure you are fast and move the chems on the print quickly after the bleach has been laid down.

I will with difficult negatives supplied by clients modify my dev and agitation technique in the dev.

Strong contrasty negs/scenes I will slow down my agitation and flat /low contrast scenes I will sometimes enhance my agitation method.
This basically satisfy's my momentary impulse to throw out a print, I am not sure how effective this is as with all jobs I give my clients a couple of prints to choose from , or at least I make the choice from a couple of variations.

Bob, have you tried warm/hot neat dev?

I'm not sure how vigerous it is compared to plain hot water

I haven't used a sponge (prints too small) but cotton wool balls and a Thermos Flask of warm/hot (50C ish) neat Dev to beef up the shaddows.

I have also used cotton wool balls soaked in iced water to hold back the highlights - either rubbed onto a local area or left in contact with the print surface for part of the developing time.

Common sense of course says you don't ever want to use your darkroom Thermos Flasks for anything else :rolleyes:

Martin

Bob Carnie · Feb 18, 2010

I would be concerned that the spigot would damage the print. thoughts????

ic-racer said:
I't will only work for me with a spigot. It is too flexible with anything more than about a liter. I'm looking now for a spigot. I'll post one when I find it.

A search for "Water Crock Spigot" turns up a lot of possibilities.

Bob Carnie · Feb 18, 2010

Martin
I have considered this, probably quite useful, Les does this.
Never thought about the ice cube in towels to hold back areas.

funny all the small tricks that are available.
just make sure at the end of the day none of the little moves are visible.

bob

Martin Aislabie said:
Bob, have you tried warm/hot neat dev?

I'm not sure how vigerous it is compared to plain hot water

I haven't used a sponge (prints too small) but cotton wool balls and a Thermos Flask of warm/hot (50C ish) neat Dev to beef up the shaddows.

I have also used cotton wool balls soaked in iced water to hold back the highlights - either rubbed onto a local area or left in contact with the print surface for part of the developing time.

Common sense of course says you don't ever want to use your darkroom Thermos Flasks for anything else :rolleyes:

Martin

jamusu · Feb 19, 2010

Bob Carnie said:
Les Mclean uses a water bath and hot second developer at times beside the main tray , he showed me his method a few years back.

For murals I have a hose running up to the tray with extremely hot water available and a monster sponge.

If I am working on a print and I want to accelerate local development I will take the print and lay flat the print emulsion up in the dev. I will wear a couple of gloves so I can handle the heat and charge the sponge with heated water .
I will then use the sponge much like a burning tool and then immediately agitate the paper so as not to see my work show up as clumsy.

Much like bleach retouching , which Les showed me as well. (He uses lots of water and weak ferri and builds up very slowly and delibertly. Just make sure you are fast and move the chems on the print quickly after the bleach has been laid down.

I will with difficult negatives supplied by clients modify my dev and agitation technique in the dev.

Strong contrasty negs/scenes I will slow down my agitation and flat /low contrast scenes I will sometimes enhance my agitation method.
This basically satisfy's my momentary impulse to throw out a print, I am not sure how effective this is as with all jobs I give my clients a couple of prints to choose from , or at least I make the choice from a couple of variations.

Bob thanks for the explanation, but I am in need of a bit more clarification if you do not mind my asking concerning the order of the print developing process. Basically there are two developers, one at regular temperature and one hotter than normal with a tray of water in between them. After developing in the first developer, go straight to the water bath, and then to the second developer. If this is correct, how long do you develop the print in the first developer, how long do keep the print in the water bath, and how long do develop the print in the second developer?

I think I am beginning to understand this process a little, but want to make sure I am on the right track.

Thank you,
James.

I am

ic-racer · Feb 19, 2010

Bob Carnie said:
I would be concerned that the spigot would damage the print. thoughts????

Just to empty the tray for cleanup.

Bob Carnie · Feb 19, 2010

James
I only use one dev tray and hot water from a hose with sponge. when printing murals.
I have never used two trays for dev other than solarizations. or before VC as soft and hard dev.

Some workers us a hot dev on sponge to locally increase tone , but I have been limited to hot water.

I do not use two trays for my printing other than the above two scenerios. I hope I haven't confused things here.

Bob

jamusu said:
Bob thanks for the explanation, but I am in need of a bit more clarification if you do not mind my asking concerning the order of the print developing process. Basically there are two developers, one at regular temperature and one hotter than normal with a tray of water in between them. After developing in the first developer, go straight to the water bath, and then to the second developer. If this is correct, how long do you develop the print in the first developer, how long do keep the print in the water bath, and how long do develop the print in the second developer?

I think I am beginning to understand this process a little, but want to make sure I am on the right track.

Thank you,
James.

I am

jamusu · Feb 19, 2010

Bob Carnie said:
James
I only use one dev tray and hot water from a hose with sponge. when printing murals.
I have never used two trays for dev other than solarizations. or before VC as soft and hard dev.

Some workers us a hot dev on sponge to locally increase tone , but I have been limited to hot water.

I do not use two trays for my printing other than the above two scenerios. I hope I haven't confused things here.

Bob

I understand. Can I use this method for smaller prints (8x10)? If so, what would be the best way to do so? I have never heard of the hot water method and would like to try it.

Thank you,
Jamusu.

Bob Carnie · Feb 19, 2010

Be careful with the hot water treatment, it can be overdone and obvious very quickly.

On smaller prints you may want to use small sponge and cotton balls or qtips.

but a keen eye will see the work if you are heavy handed.

jamusu said:
I understand. Can I use this method for smaller prints (8x10)? If so, what would be the best way to do so? I have never heard of the hot water method and would like to try it.

Thank you,
Jamusu.

ic-racer · Feb 19, 2010

Here is an example of the large images I currently am producing. They are physically glued together by hand, not unlike the way a work of art would be created (as opposed to a computer creation ). I am proud of the joining lines as they clearly differentiate my work from "stitched" work. However, I have been doing this for 5 years and still don't feel like I have a good technique to glue them together. Currently I am using tape to hold the images together and then using super glue for the bond. The reason I have been using that technique is that superglue glue flows well and leaches under the two pieces of paper while they are still held in alignment. Then it sets instantly.

Each one was created with a different technique:

TOP IMAGE: This was done with the Rollei panorama head. So, it is three separate negatives that were printed then glued together with the image matched up.
SMALL IMAGE: This is a mock up for a larger image (yet to be printed). This was also done with the Rollei panorama head and 3 negatives, but in this case the rebate of the center image was included, and the other two were overlapped to line up the subject.
BOTTOM LARGE IMAGE: This was done with a totally different technique. The original negative is 8x10 and I used a 210mm lens to print four separate segments of the image on 16x20 paper. Then I glued the 4 pieces together and matched up the image. It came out 51" long x 20" high. I used a 'scrolling' negative carrier (the Durst Negateil) to position each segment of the original negative over the lens.

PVia · Feb 19, 2010

I don't mind seeing the rebate on film panoramas, in fact sometimes I think it adds to the presentation.

frotog · Feb 24, 2010

Nice pictures IC. Interesting technique...never heard of the durst scrolling neg. carrier. However, I now understand why you're so keen on making murals as one contiguous panorama on a single sheet of paper is a much more elegant solution than crazy glue and scotch tape - especially for the sort of imagery that you're dealing with.

A couple thoughts to save you some grief...
1. Since you're rather handy you may want to consider making up your own mural troughs out of plywood and marine epoxy resin. In my experience a single 40x50 mural will exhaust one gallon of dektol 1:3 plus one gallon of working stop bath. The first bath of fixer will last for two prints. Unless you have a 1200 sq. ft. drkrm. and two or three migrant workers in jumpsuits schlepping the prints through the various baths for you, working with smaller quantities of chemistry and a smaller footprint will save you lots of time and headaches in the long run. I have two sets of ss trays - one 44 x 12 x5 for 42" rolls and the other 56 x 15 x 5 for 52" rolls.

2. If sink space is a concern working with two trays is an option. Start with dev. in one and stop in the other, after you finish stopping development pour stop out of the second tray and pour fix in. Use your second tray to remove hypo and perform final wash with fill and dumps.

3. Instead of purchasing the $900 52" x 100' roll of Ilford warmtone fb check for rolls on ebay. Occasionally you'll see rolls of the digitally optimized ilford 50" x 100' rc. What most people don't know is that it's fully compatible with optical enlargement as long as you can work in total darkness. Contrast is approx. grade 4.

4. If you need a shorter width and you don't want to deal with cutting through the roll yourself, try Varo technical in West Chester, Pa. I use them for all my film and paper rendering needs.

ic-racer · Feb 24, 2010

fotog, thanks for the suggestions. I would have enough room for 4 troughs.

In terms of paper, I'm probably going to get this roll :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/80148-REG/Ilford_1769423_Multigrade_IV_RC_Deluxe.html

It is 100 feet of 24" paper for $180 USD. I can cut 30"x24" pieces and process them in those Home Depot trays. I could also splice 3 or 4 of them together for some really big prints. I suspect after going through that whole roll I'll have a pretty good idea of what would be involved if I want to go even bigger.

jamusu · Mar 2, 2010

Having never made an enlargement bigger than 11x14, I am curios to know when is the best time to use rolls? Is it when one needs to make a print larger than 20x24?

Jamusu.

richard ide · Mar 3, 2010

Jamusu,
You have to use rolls for larger prints.

ic-racer · Mar 3, 2010

jamusu said:
Having never made an enlargement bigger than 11x14, I am curios to know when is the best time to use rolls? Is it when one needs to make a print larger than 20x24?

Jamusu.

I have not done the math but my intuition is that there is a very considerable cash savings in rolls. Even the smaller 5 inch rolls and such.

Anon Ymous · Mar 3, 2010

ic-racer said:
I have not done the math but my intuition is that there is a very considerable cash savings in rolls. Even the smaller 5 inch rolls and such.

I've thought about that possibility, but it doesn't really look that good, unless you want to make huge prints, or want to make unusual sizes. Once you get the 100 sheet packs it's more or less the same as cutting your own, at least from what I've seen.

Big prints; propagation trays and paper rolls...

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