Big prints; propagation trays and paper rolls...

One of the biggest problems I had trying to teach people to roll develop prints was the tendency to squeeze the roll, putting dents in the paper (particularly RC). When I visited Bob Carnie's studio, I had difficulty controlling the audible drooling. What a beautiful place to create in.

I have done some large prints (40x60 inches) with a friend using a much more temporary and inexpensive set up

At our local hardware store we got some wallpaper troughs that were long enough to take 42 inch paper (these were designed to be used to wallpaper that had been pre-glued)

However at about 8 inches they were not wide enough – so we taped two together and cut out the central walls.

We then used some industrial sized polythene sheet as a waterproof liner.

We made up 4 troughs like this – Dev, Stop, Fix & HCA.

For the wash we fortunately had a sink big enough to take the 42 inch width – so we just loosely rolled the paper over itself and left it to wash for ages with plenty of fill and partial dumps (we didn’t want the wet paper to become completely unsupported)
Alternately you could use your domestic bathtub.

To develop the prints, we stood one each side of the troughs and see-sawed the paper through the baths.

The biggest problem we had was inadvertent marking of the paper with creases – FB paper of that size is awfully floppy when wet – a third or fourth assistant would have been a great help – or possibly using RC paper which is a bit more rigid when wet.

As a temporary solution it worked OK (all that bending and straightening was hard on my back I remember) but I wouldn’t want to do it that way more than an occasional one-off.

It was cheap and rather messy but worked fine for the 3 or 4 prints we made like this. If you were wanting to do more than a handful of prints on a more frequent basis I would suggest you invest in some custom made trays and some sort of stretcher/carrier which would adequately support the wet prints as they moved from tray to tray.

Hope this was of some help

Martin

Lith printing Large Murals requires an assistant on the other side of the sink. the stop is almost butted up to the dev tray and the snatch is counted down and both workers pull the print over the tray lips into the stop at the same time , works very well.
Guillume Z and others have done this numerous times in my darkroom , timing and quick hands help*** we are darkroom workers right***
I can do this myself but the paper after 3-4 minutes is like thin noodles on a spoon and easy to damage .
I find Lith murals as easy as regular.

Ice racer- do not get worried about vertical enlarging , that is how I do it in fact it is much easier to dodge and burn this way , you just work the same way as a regular print.
getting up and down and placing the paper on the metal and holding with magnets is a bummer but once the paper is in place making the print should be no different than what you do with an 11x14.
If I was making 40x50 all the time then it would always be my wall Durst enlarger but I kinda priced them out of range for all the very serious and also serious Valid Visa Cards.
Most of my prints are considered 30x40, I get asked to print full frame 20x24 all the time and I price these as 30x40 as well.
and I always make the short side 28 inches so that I have a bit of handling room when processing.
QUOTE=VincentM;919419]and how would you do if you were to LITH print murals???
Issues I can forsee are: how to get an even development and how to "snatch" the print in time?[/QUOTE]

Large Prints in Trays

I built my darkroom and sinks around the ability to print a maximum size of 30"X40" by tray processing. Paper is enlarged vertically to max by use of a 36"X48" drop table and wall mounted enlarging head. I gave up on processing large prints (> 20X24) by roll processing as the potential to crease and damage emulsion (fiber only) was simply to great for me. I print up to 30X40 from 40 and 42" rolls in large (32"X44") plastic Cesco trays, the same as with smaller sheet sizes. It's a bit tight with 42" roll paper, but still reduces handling only to moving from tray to tray. I use 5 of these large trays, committing one to wash by installing a homemade water distribution manifold and drain:

I shuffle up to six prints in the wash after toning and clearing baths (Permawash replacing water in the stop tray (TF-4 Fix)), while filling and dumping every 5 - 10 minutes as well.

This is how they come out:

18X30 (left), doorway, 30X40 (right)
24X40 & 30X40 on hanging walls (6'X8') in backroom
20X24 on far back walls

and

30X40 flanked by 20X24's

BTW, the warehouse personnel at Calumet LA, where I purchased the trays, laughed at me as I squeezed them into the back of my Toyota 4-Runner, quipping "Are you going swimming?"

Looks like you are handling big prints with great success, I love to see the big murals on the walls.

ROL said:

I built my darkroom and sinks around the ability to print a maximum size of 30"X40" by tray processing. Paper is enlarged vertically to max by use of a 36"X48" drop table and wall mounted enlarging head. I gave up on processing large prints (> 20X24) by roll processing as the potential to crease and damage emulsion (fiber only) was simply to great for me. I print up to 30X40 from 40 and 42" rolls in large (32"X44") plastic Cesco trays, the same as with smaller sheet sizes. It's a bit tight with 42" roll paper, but still reduces handling only to moving from tray to tray. I use 5 of these large trays, committing one to wash by installing a homemade water distribution manifold and drain:

I shuffle up to six prints in the wash after toning and clearing baths (Permawash replacing water in the stop tray (TF-4 Fix)), while filling and dumping every 5 - 10 minutes as well.

This is how they come out:

18X30 (left), doorway, 30X40 (right)
24X40 & 30X40 on hanging walls (6'X8') in backroom
20X24 on far back walls

and

30X40 flanked by 20X24's

BTW, the warehouse personnel at Calumet LA, where I purchased the trays, laughed at me as I squeezed them into the back of my Toyota 4-Runner, quipping "Are you going swimming?"

Click to expand...

Ic-racer

Ok so this thread is on my mind , I did not sleep much last night and funny enough part of it was thinking of the logistics for you *thanks a lot*

SINGLE TRAY WILL BE A NIGHTMARE

No matter how well it may work for smaller prints( I really fear cross contamination over savings of space)

I just went and weighed my 30x40 plastic tray , unscientific calculation 25lbs or the same weight as my dog lucy give or take a couple of pounds.

Since I print murals regularly. I just poured working 8 litres of water into the tray that would be needed to fully immerse a 30x40 sheet of paper and realistically be able to work the chems on the print . I would use 12 litres minimal for a days work plus replenish but anyways I poured this back into a bucket with help and it was awkward and some spill and still some liquid left in the tray . I cannot lift this myself and pour into the bucket as my arms would need to be 3 feet longer or I would have to be 2 feet taller.
The combined weight of tray and liquid equals both my dogs Barney and Lucy. give or take a couple of pounds so I figure around 50 lbs.

So go out buy a 32x42 inch plywood sheet, buy a bag of 50 lbs potatoes and combine them and you basically have the working tray.( not a lot of fun to handle unless your name is Dr Hyde.
add into the equation a wayfer thin slippery like wet noodle sheet of paper with a thin emulsion just ready to be damaged and you be the Judge of handling the tray this way.

NOW ONTO THE QUICK DRAIN IDEA

Well we are now all up to speed on how hard it would be to man handle your print with the above notations in mind.( unless you go by Mr Hyde)
Imagine what happens when a print goes into a tray of wet chemicals and after 3minutes you have a slippery prescious item just crying to be damaged.
Well lets turn on the siphon and drain this sucker.... Well what is in the tray wants to get out of the tray.... so unless you have a much oversized tray than the print ,,,, now we are talking doubling the amount of liquid,,,,, as well a second set of hands to get the print away from the drain... did I mention that the print is now much like a wayfer thin wet nooodle, so don't f...jllksdj touch the emulsion ....

Lith printing, solarization, printing is for sure out of the window due to snatch development.
maybe a long enough development time will work to insure no uneven flow marks while the print patiently waits for the dev to drain then able to add the stop.

SORRY

this will not work either or I will eat my shorts. Ok that is a bit extreme, I will eat Brussel Sprouts for a week.

Thank you very much for keeping me up all night with this problem. I would love to see a video that actually shows single tray processing working in mural size by any of the proponents of this way of working. No Flow Marks , No creasing , No contamination.


IMO the best option for space and ability to make fine crafted murals will be a series of HOME DEPOT under the bed storage devices that can be put in one sink or on the floor and have one in the sink for washing.
Working with large trays is very difficult even if you have lots of room, this is exactly why we wear Orange Jumpsuits here , the spilling of chems on one's body is almost a given.

ic-racer said:

I am currently working through the logistics of doing some prints larger than my current max of 16x20.

I have read through most of the posts in this forum on large printing. "The Negaive" has a chapter on mural printing also, and I have read it many times.
I'm thinking of a setup involving a single large tray that is at the level of my sink. It would be able to gravity drain and it would be filled manually with a bucket.

I want some system that I can take down when not in use. I thought I'd get one of those large "propagation trays" and reinforce the bottom with aluminum ("T", "L" or square) and fiberglass. Then I'd prop one end of the large tray on my bench by the sink and support the other end.

I found a number of possible supports at Northern Tool. Even a hydraulic table for $140 that could raise and lower the supported side to aid in emptying. Perhaps even something like this http://www.jcwhitney.com/jcwhitney/...8G&zmam=73771597&zmas=18&zmac=123&zmap=27878G

I found a 3" ball valve that seemed like it could empty the tray rapidly.

Thoughts, suggestions, etc..

Click to expand...

bob,

IF you somehow did use a single tray method, You'd need

1. a HUGE drain, to empty the chems out of
2. a HUGE input valve, with a SUPER fast flow rate(primarily for LITH, snatch dev. and all)
3. a big cookie-type "cooling" rack. so that the print doesn't get sucked down into the drain. also, IF big enough, you wouldn't have to touch the paper at all. just the rack it's on. therefore, your "wet noodle" becomes somewhat rigid. and if it were made of stainless steel, you shouldn't get any contamination to the back of the prints.

something kind of like this, just MUCH BIGGER. lightweight(like 1-2lbs or so, just the rack) the rack in the pictures is like 5-6 oz.






-Dan

I'm thinking the print will suck right through the metal.
Flash Gordon will need to be hired to operate this sucker.

DanielStone said:

bob,

IF you somehow did use a single tray method, You'd need

1. a HUGE drain, to empty the chems out of
2. a HUGE input valve, with a SUPER fast flow rate(primarily for LITH, snatch dev. and all)
3. a big cookie-type "cooling" rack. so that the print doesn't get sucked down into the drain. also, IF big enough, you wouldn't have to touch the paper at all. just the rack it's on. therefore, your "wet noodle" becomes somewhat rigid. and if it were made of stainless steel, you shouldn't get any contamination to the back of the prints.

something kind of like this, just MUCH BIGGER. lightweight(like 1-2lbs or so, just the rack) the rack in the pictures is like 5-6 oz.

-Dan

Click to expand...

but bob,

if the screen is big enough, and the openings on the screen are say, 3/4" square, I don't think you should have any problems with "suction marks". but Flash G. would be the ideal operator though .

just an idea. you could also make a basket system, with something like this for the bottom:

http://www.mechanicalmetals.com/roundholeperforatedmetals.html.

so you essentially have a "flat" surface, to not create texture on the bottom of the print, due to the suction from the drain opening, but still would allow the chems to drain fast enough.

-Dan

-Dan

Daniel

anything is possible, the OP showed trays much like the ones I use on occasion.
I think you need to give it a try and see some of the limitations once paper is in chemical.
The tray would have to be much larger than the print as chems lie on top of the paper when wet after 2 min, you will need to get rid of at least one gallon of this chemical as well .. can of worms I say.
I think you need to try this first or you should be the one eating the brussel sprouts for a week.
It really is a physical nightmare.

one could design a dip and dunk, for large prints , anything is possible .
I had one priced out.... 120k from Colenta Jobo people around five years ago. Based on Refrema machines but biggie size

Not practical for the OP

DanielStone said:

but bob,

if the screen is big enough, and the openings on the screen are say, 3/4" square, I don't think you should have any problems with "suction marks". but Flash G. would be the ideal operator though .

just an idea. you could also make a basket system, with something like this for the bottom:

http://www.mechanicalmetals.com/roundholeperforatedmetals.html.

so you essentially have a "flat" surface, to not create texture on the bottom of the print, due to the suction from the drain opening, but still would allow the chems to drain fast enough.

-Dan

-Dan

Click to expand...

Hi IC Racer -
After reading through some of these suggestions I'm realizing how helpful a link to a how-to video will be. Until then let me reiterate a few key points...

1. You do not need a lot of chemistry to process murals (unless you're in the business of photo-finishing like Bob).
2. Once the print is wet it is a lot easier to handle in a roll (this goes for washing too) - as soon as the print or a large portion of the print is submerged and laid flat the chances of crimping are increased ten-fold.
3. It is not necessary to completely submerge the rolled up print for processing, on the contrary, it is easiest to process in a trough filled 1/2" - 1.5" deep.
4. Two long, narrow troughs (no wider than one foot) and a sink long enough to accommodate the troughs is all that is necessary to make mural prints (first trough developer, second trough stop, fix, hypo, and wash).
5. The most curl-free drying technique is to dry prints vertically.
6. If you don't have access to a dry-mount press a final wash in Edwal foto-flat will work surprisingly well.

Thanks,
Frotog.

...Oh yeah...almost forgot....my s.s. tray weighs 18lbs. A gallon of dektol, stop, fix or h20 weighs about 8lbs. So when it comes to dumping fluid from my second trough I'm never lifting more than 25 lbs (most of the time I'm not lifting so much as tipping one end of the trough and when I do this the print is always in a roll - chemistry spills are never an issue). And while I may have hairy forearms and a 36" sleeve I am certainly not a Mr. Hyde nor do I have a jumpsuit in my closet.

just putting some ideas out there.

A big version of a Nova slot-procesor would probably be the best way though, with Nitrogen burst, like a dip-n-dunk processor.

but for processing 50"x60", this would take up a bit of space though.

-Dan

Were would we be without ideas. and yes a big version of a Refrema/Nova Slot processor would be fantastic but very pricey.

DanielStone said:

just putting some ideas out there.

A big version of a Nova slot-procesor would probably be the best way though, with Nitrogen burst, like a dip-n-dunk processor.

but for processing 50"x60", this would take up a bit of space though.

-Dan

Click to expand...

DanielStone said:

just putting some ideas out there.

A big version of a Nova slot-procesor would probably be the best way though, with Nitrogen burst, like a dip-n-dunk processor.

but for processing 50"x60", this would take up a bit of space though.

-Dan

Click to expand...

K.I.S.S.

Bob Carnie said:

Working with large trays is very difficult even if you have lots of room, this is exactly why we wear Orange Jumpsuits here , the spilling of chems on one's body is almost a given.

Click to expand...

Well said, but also well worth it if you can figure out a workflow.

It takes me 5 - 7 hours of nonstop exhaustive effort to produce 3 to 6 large fine prints, assuming I've set the negative up and aligned the enlarger the night before. That's twice as long as working with standard sheet sizes. Because of their weight, I must handle wet prints with my fingers - tongs are out of the question - with constant hand washing between process stations (gloves being impractical). Often, at the end of a session, I attempt to save selenium toner by pouring it from the large tray into my smaller standard size toning tray to be reused. Only half of the original 2 gallons typically makes it in successfully, with the remainder ending up in the sink, on the floor, and on me!

Bob, Thanks for you thoughtful response. I read it a couple of times. I think you saved me many hours of trial and error.

I'll have to read through all the other posts. Thanks for posting everyone and keep the ideas coming!

I found this 27" x 30" tray for $20 USD at Home Depot. It even has a flat area to place a spigot.

I think I will have enough room for 4 of these trays on my existing countertops.

Looks like a washing machine tray. A lot cheaper than photo trays.

ROL said:

I built my darkroom and sinks around the ability to print a maximum size of 30"X40" by tray processing.
This is how they come out:

18X30 (left), doorway, 30X40 (right)
24X40 & 30X40 on hanging walls (6'X8') in backroom
20X24 on far back walls

and

30X40 flanked by 20X24's

Click to expand...

Wow, Didn't think that 24x20s could be made to look so small!

They look like some serious prints and a great display. Sweet exhibit. I'm off into my darkroom now to print some 7x7s and trying not to sucumb to print envy

Sim2.

Looks like I can get Ilford MG in 24" and 30" rolls. That tray is JUST 30" on the inner dimension, so its either 24" or just lop an inch off the 30".

All those sizes will fit on my baseboard, but the paper roll probably hangs best from a wall. But I guess you only hand the paper roll out to cut it to size, then its back in the box for the exposure.

So, the next step is probably to just buy the big paper roll and once it gets here, figure out how exactly I'm going to process it and expose it.


BTW, yes, that tray is the one that is supposed to fit under an appliance.

greg,

where'd you find that one? I'm totally interested in finding it, was it on youtube?

-Dan

Bob Carnie said:

I print murals every week, and I cannot imagine using a single tray , in fact I think you would be opening the biggest can of whoopass trying to do it this way.
The lag time between dev and stop would be impossible to predict, flow lines and uneven development issues would be tremendous. I know there are those out there using single tray method for smaller prints , but for murals I see it as a very problematic way of working.

I would suggest a series of troughs that hold enough chemistry to completley immerse a rolled up mural and by rolling it through your hands and then rotating it back through the chems will work.
We run lambda murals this way in complete darkness.
For safelight work we use monster trays.

Single tray IMO would be nasty.

Click to expand...

Bob.

Is this what you are referring to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3syVdV6XbY#

jamusu said:

Bob.

Is this what you are referring to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3syVdV6XbY#

Click to expand...

Hmm.. looks pretty frickin easy with those troughs.

Love that video. I really, really want to make some big prints like that.


Looks like he (who is that doing the prints??) is using a Durst 184 with condenser head tipped on its side.

Do you notice four troughs dev, stop fix , fix I would imagine.
the big burning in card is cool,
In my setup the prints would not be made horizontally but vertically which I think is easier.
40x60 and above would be done horizontally.

Thats pretty much how I roll the prints , make sure to hold on the sides.