Big prints; propagation trays and paper rolls...

ic-racer · Jan 3, 2010

I am currently working through the logistics of doing some prints larger than my current max of 16x20.

I have read through most of the posts in this forum on large printing. "The Negaive" has a chapter on mural printing also, and I have read it many times.
I'm thinking of a setup involving a single large tray that is at the level of my sink. It would be able to gravity drain and it would be filled manually with a bucket.

I want some system that I can take down when not in use. I thought I'd get one of those large "propagation trays" and reinforce the bottom with aluminum ("T", "L" or square) and fiberglass. Then I'd prop one end of the large tray on my bench by the sink and support the other end.

I found a number of possible supports at Northern Tool. Even a hydraulic table for $140 that could raise and lower the supported side to aid in emptying. Perhaps even something like this http://www.jcwhitney.com/jcwhitney/...8G&zmam=73771597&zmas=18&zmac=123&zmap=27878G

I found a 3" ball valve that seemed like it could empty the tray rapidly.

Thoughts, suggestions, etc..

frotog · Jan 3, 2010

Hi IC Racer! I know it might push people outside their comfort zone but I can't overemphasize the efficacy of the scrolling technique when it comes to mural prints from roll paper - even development, no chem. waste, small footprint, no macgiver-style rigging necessary, and less likelihood of crimping print. I had a local machine shop make up two trays out of 18 ga. 316 ss - 52"x10"x5" (or smaller if you only plan on using 40" wide rolls), the walls angled out so the inside angle at the bottom of the tray measures 120 degrees. I use a gallon of dektol per 50" wide print and then directly into stop bath (also one-shot). Then pick up the end of tray and dump stop out and pour fix in. I reuse fix until exhaustion and use a one gallon ss graduate to hold it (my sink is a little over 120" so no room for a third tray). The scrolling technique can be mastered with a little practice. When I hire someone to wash prints for me (scrolling and fill and dumps with fresh water in tray) I have them practice with an old piece of mural paper or a test print. I learned this technique from a printer who used to do all the mural printing for Gus over at Palm Press. Hope this helps!

Bob Carnie · Jan 3, 2010

I print murals every week, and I cannot imagine using a single tray , in fact I think you would be opening the biggest can of whoopass trying to do it this way.
The lag time between dev and stop would be impossible to predict, flow lines and uneven development issues would be tremendous. I know there are those out there using single tray method for smaller prints , but for murals I see it as a very problematic way of working.

I would suggest a series of troughs that hold enough chemistry to completley immerse a rolled up mural and by rolling it through your hands and then rotating it back through the chems will work.
We run lambda murals this way in complete darkness.
For safelight work we use monster trays.

Single tray IMO would be nasty.

ic-racer · Jan 3, 2010

My only worry with the scrolling technique is how to wash? Otherwise it seems ideal for me. That is the way suggested in Adams' book.

Bob-D659 · Jan 3, 2010

That's a little overkill and expensive to boot. You could make a tray to fit your print with a 1" larger interior dimension from 1/2" strand board exterior sheathing, 1x4 frame and line it with a layer of fiberglass cloth and resin. Use wood to make a spout in one end so the chemicals could be 1.5" deep max. This way you can pick up the other end to drain it quickly and they won't slosh out too much when agitating. A tray just big enough minimizes the chemicals needed and a large print will need quite a volume of them. Have fun.

frotog · Jan 3, 2010

Bob - interesting that you prefer scrolling through a bath as deep as the overall diameter of the roll as I've found that if the bath is deeper than approx 1.5" there is too much drag to quickly scroll the print from one end to the other. Besides, the surface of the print wrapped up in the roll is not receiving agitation until it hits the space between the two rolls comprising the scroll. On a 50x70 in one gallon of dektol I'm able to scroll through the entire print in 15 seconds, ensuring even development through quick replenishment over the entire surface of the print. I agree with you regarding doing this with one tray however, for those of us that do not have a 15' long sink it is not a problem to use the stop tray as your fix and wash tray.

frotog · Jan 3, 2010

ic-racer said:
My only worry with the scrolling technique is how to wash? Otherwise it seems ideal for me. That is the way suggested in Adams' book.

Washing is accomplished the same way - scroll the print back and forth for three to five minutes then dump water and refill with fresh water. I get the hypo out in the time it takes to listen to both sides of an lp. Make sure to dry vertically either tacked to homosote or hanging from clothesline weighted at bottom.

Bob Carnie · Jan 3, 2010

I should point out that I am using 30-40litres of dev when I print murals so the whole roll is immersed and rolled under the chemicals. we always leave a 1inch on either side for fingers to hold and roll and there is no drag, I have found with less chemicals it is problematic as you suggest, but when we are running the prints this way we are ganging up quite a few jobs , and the lambda auto nests the images on the 30 inch roll and we usually run about 5-8ft at a time of paper with a 3.5 min dev time which has worked well for us.
We usually work with 30 inch rolls for this method and for enlarger prints always cut from 30 or 40 inch roll and tray process . Our sink is over 35ft long and 55inches wide so we can accomodate a lot of trays.
All our trays are custom built with handles by a plastic welder guy and they work very well.
To date I have not done 50 inch by ??? wet prints for customers as I require a big budget for that but I have the wall mural enlarger ready to go for anyone wanting to meet the minimum $$ requirement.

frotog said:
Bob - interesting that you prefer scrolling through a bath as deep as the overall diameter of the roll as I've found that if the bath is deeper than approx 1.5" there is too much drag to quickly scroll the print from one end to the other. Besides, the surface of the print wrapped up in the roll is not receiving agitation until it hits the space between the two rolls comprising the scroll. On a 50x70 in one gallon of dektol I'm able to scroll through the entire print in 15 seconds, ensuring even development through quick replenishment over the entire surface of the print. I agree with you regarding doing this with one tray however, for those of us that do not have a 15' long sink it is not a problem to use the stop tray as your fix and wash tray.

frotog · Jan 3, 2010

I'd love to see your operation some day - sounds intense! I'm a bit more cottage industry to say the least. Most of my mural jobs are done two to three images per day, two prints per image. As I mentioned I'm using a standard size sink - a little over ten feet long and about two feet wide. I scroll wearing nitrile gloves, gently holding the wrap right in the middle of the roll with one hand on the take up spool and the other on the feeding side. Again, no need to completely submerge roll so long as you can scroll all the way through the print in under 30". This way you can use a lot less chemistry than most people would think.

Bob Carnie · Jan 3, 2010

Sounds like it works great for you , how large are you going with your prints? For washing after the double fix , I hypo clear and in most cases cut the prints to fit in a 30x40 inch tray with holes in the bottom and basically as you say and replenish the water with lots of dumps. For longer images I use the wash troughs that I fill and dump as you suggest.
When my new website is completed in the next month or so we will be posting images of our gallery , darkroom, studio and frame woodworking shop as well as some of the clients we work for and the processes we work with. Kind of like a propoganda vehicle for us.
I am right in the middle of building a new processing system for very large film and regular size film and once this is done and in place we will go live with the website that is being designed and implemented by APUG's own JD Callow from Michigan.

frotog said:
I'd love to see your operation some day - sounds intense! I'm a bit more cottage industry to say the least. Most of my mural jobs are done two to three images per day, two prints per image. As I mentioned I'm using a standard size sink - a little over ten feet long and about two feet wide. I scroll wearing nitrile gloves, gently holding the wrap right in the middle of the roll with one hand on the take up spool and the other on the feeding side. Again, no need to completely submerge roll so long as you can scroll all the way through the print in under 30". This way you can use a lot less chemistry than most people would think.

frotog · Jan 3, 2010

On 52" Ilford I'm going a little longer than six feet. I don't have a minimum requirement as my technique keeps my overhead low and my set-up for murals is always ready to go. Besides, I'm not operating a full-time photo finishing house as printing makes up 30-50% of my income, the rest is from freelance photoshoots.

How are you drying your prints Bob?

Bob Carnie · Jan 3, 2010

I have 8 monster screens 4.5 x 8.5 ft long up in the ceiling and we walk up a ladder and face down the rolls on them.
Heat rises to the top right and is a perfect solution for this purpose.
We also have a 40 x60 inch hot press to flatten between rag board when dry.
I squeegie first then face down , I use mostly Ilford products and this works for me.
There are a couple of 4x8ft presses in town and I have my eye on them for the future.
Your making some pretty big ass prints I am impressed.

Bob

frotog said:
On 52" Ilford I'm going a little longer than six feet. I don't have a minimum requirement as my technique keeps my overhead low and my set-up for murals is always ready to go. Besides, I'm not operating a full-time photo finishing house as printing makes up 30-50% of my income, the rest is from freelance photoshoots.

How are you drying your prints Bob?

DanielStone · Jan 3, 2010

what about using plastic screen material(like 1/16" thick), think plastic chicken wire) rolled up with the print, and make a vertical print washer? All you'd need is a 4-5" dia. pvc tube, cut to whatever length you want, anchored to a heavy block, with water feed lines at the bottom, so water flow would go from bottom to top?

just not rolled too tightly, just enough to keep the paper from sticking to each other.

-Dan

eddie · Jan 3, 2010

How large do you want to go?

Bob Carnie · Jan 3, 2010

This would work
much like the basket Calumet system of old.
I would use this idea in the future when I do the Farm Project.
Basically a complete mural, alternative workshop with water systems a hour north of Toronto with lots of land surrounding me.
You could also build the same tank configuration as you describe and put weights on the paper or film and dip them into these large water reservoirs.

DanielStone said:
what about using plastic screen material(like 1/16" thick), think plastic chicken wire) rolled up with the print, and make a vertical print washer? All you'd need is a 4-5" dia. pvc tube, cut to whatever length you want, anchored to a heavy block, with water feed lines at the bottom, so water flow would go from bottom to top?

just not rolled too tightly, just enough to keep the paper from sticking to each other.

-Dan

ic-racer · Jan 3, 2010

eddie said:
How large do you want to go?

40" roll. Perhaps 40 as the 'long' dimension. Bob mentioned 30" rolls, but I have not seen that size (though still exploring).

50" and 49" rolls may be bigger than I want to go.

The "cut" sheets of 20x30 and bigger seem awfully expensive, and the long paper rolls seem like a more economical way to go. Especially since this is not a business.

I have already thought of funding, I told my wife I'll be making some 40" pictures of the family and kids...

A lot of excellent comments.

I was impressed by Bob C's work, especially when I learned he printed for Bill Schwab. That also got me thinking that if Bill can build a complete mobile wet plate trailer then I can rig up some way to process some big prints

I actually DO have enough space for a number of monster trays and a 30 foot sink, the problem is that I need a system that I can "put away" when not in use.

My father has offered a commercial rental space. Perhaps that is something to look into. It is 45 minutes for my house. Getting a second 8x10 chassis would be no big deal. There is even a $200 Durst 184 chassis on fleabay now and I have a spare 8x10 head......Ok, back to reality.

Keep the comments coming.

ic-racer · Jan 3, 2010

frotog, any pictures or links to pictures of your setup?

Bob Carnie · Jan 3, 2010

I buy my paper Ilford Warmtone in 50 x100ft rolls
We then take our table saw into the darkroom and cut it to 30 inch and 20 inch roll give or take blade width.
I know this sound completely crazy and every time we do it my ... lls get frozen until the whole roll is cut. Not for the feint of heart and you do need a good saw and blace
We then cut the 20 inch down to 20x24 and 16x20 using a rotar trimmer and use the 30 inch for roll work and I cut from the box.
I really like 100ft roll vs the 30 ft version some other company's try to give you.
the 30 ft rolls dry out and curl worse than pubic hair and there is a lot of wastage. I have never seen this problem with 100ft rolls from Ilford.
I buy the 42 inch roll by 100ft ilford MG4 which is a perfect size for 30x40's, and again I cut from the box. the Ilford boxes are very robust and can handle a cut. Just measure the length you need with a tape measure, place the measure and see where the length falls on you body , I am quite short so the pull is usually to my tits or neck and then let the paper roll back onto itself, hang the roll over the box lip and with a Alpha blade **don't cut off your fingers in haste* cut the paper from the roll and put back on the lid and expose.

ic-racer said:
40" roll. Perhaps 40 as the 'long' dimension. Bob mentioned 30" rolls, but I have not seen that size (though still exploring).

50" and 49" rolls may be bigger than I want to go.

The "cut" sheets of 20x30 and bigger seem awfully expensive, and the long paper rolls seem like a more economical way to go. Especially since this is not a business.

I have already thought of funding, I told my wife I'll be making some 40" pictures of the family and kids...

A lot of excellent comments.

I was impressed by Bob C's work, especially when I learned he printed for Bill Schwab. That also got me thinking that if Bill can build a complete mobile wet plate trailer then I can rig up some way to process some big prints.

I actually DO have enough space for a number of monster trays and a 30 foot sink, the problem is that I need a system that I can "put away" when not in use.

My father has offered a commercial rental space. Perhaps that is something to look into. It is 45 minutes for my house. Getting a second 8x10 chassis would be no big deal. There is even a $200 Durst 184 chassis on fleabay now and I have a spare 8x10 head......Ok, back to reality.

Keep the comments coming.

eddie · Jan 3, 2010

I haven't done murals in many years but, when I did, it was the rolling method mentioned by others. It is easy, once you get used to it. Back then, I used the same method for washing. If I were to do it again, I'd use one of these for washing (for 30" x40"), with 2 tray siphons:

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=39664&catid=852

For larger prints, I'd build a tray with the same plywood/waterproofing materials used for a darkroom sink.

ic-racer · Jan 3, 2010

Those 30x40 trays look nice. I just measured and my existing processing area will hold 3 of them. Those trays, combined with some 'paper roll chopping' as described by Bob above may be a workable solution.

TRAY 1 = Developer
TRAY 2 = Acetic acid
TRAY 3 = add spigot, use for FIX then drain and do the wash sequence.

In fact adding a spigot to each tray would make emptying them when done much easier as the trays will be overhanging my table top a few inches.

Also, by limiting it to 40" I can keep it all on the baseboard and I don't have to worry about horizontal projection, as that is another 'can of worms.' Currently there is only one area with clearance between the rafters for the 'top hat' of my CLS head to go to the top. Too bad that with the enlarger in that location, a horizontal projection lands right on the edge of a doorway. So, I would have to move the enlarger in a direction 90 degrees to the wheels to go between horizontal and vertical projection...not so easy

eddie · Jan 3, 2010

Remember, you'll also need perma-wash and a second wash.
I'd probably use the roll method for the stop bath, since it's a shorter time.
Use the big trays for the parts that take longer.

VincentM · Jan 3, 2010

and how would you do if you were to LITH print murals???
Issues I can forsee are: how to get an even development and how to "snatch" the print in time?

dancqu · Jan 3, 2010

The Way with a Single Tray -- One-Shot Chemistry

Bob Carnie said:
I know there are those out there using single tray method
for smaller prints , but for murals I see it as a very
problematic way of working.

The way to work with single tray processing is with very
dilute one-shot chemistry. Pre wet with water, use minimal
solution volumes and protracted times. Chemistry is down
the drain after one use. A stop is not needed. The very
dilute one-shot fixer will not be loading up with carry
over developer.

The protracted times for developer and fixer allow for
even development and fixing and other following
chemistries. Dan

Phil · Jan 3, 2010

I got some 40" mural paper from a guy who was closing up his darkroom. He gave me some trays he made from rain gutters (4.5" wide and 2.5" deep) He cut a 10' section into 3 pieces and put the snap-on ends on and the paper fit fine as the ends added a bit more length. He used the rolling method for processing and had a kiddie pool he used outdoors for washing. I have not had a chance to try them out, but they look useable. Google "raingo vinyl gutter"

vdonovan · Jan 3, 2010

I've done five 40" wide murals, all between 25 and 30 feet long. All using the trough rolling method (the troughs are made of stiff plastic epoxied together). It's tedious but it works.

Big prints; propagation trays and paper rolls...

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