Best C41 chemical kits?

[Tim V]

Dear all,

I'm new to C41 processing having just bought a Jobo CPP3. I'm looking to begin processing 8x10" and 4x5" film in expert drums, and I'm wondering if there is a quality and reliability difference between the different brands of chemicals? I know C41 is a standard process, but I have heard anecdotally that some brands are more prone to streaking and other defects and considering the cost and preciousness of 8x10" film I don't want to take any chances.

The complicating factor is that I live in New Zealand and will have to import my chemical kits. Most stores will not ship a good portion of chemicals to NZ, but these are some of the options I see that I can perhaps get hold of via 'slow boat' shipping.

• UNICOLOR powder kit
• Kodak Flexicolor (massive quantities though, how to partial bottles of the developer keep? Can't imagine getting through 20L very fast unless I bank up film and process in massive batches.)
• Tetenal Colortec (Shipping is limited or prohibited by most places, but I think Fotoimpex can find a way...)
• Film Photography Project C41 kit (Cheap, but is it any good?)
• Rollei Digibase Kit (again from Fotoimpex, who I think offer ground shipping only.)
• CiniStill Cs41 powder kits (as above)

Getting this stuff in NZ is very hard and expensive. A very good local store is looking at bringing in a product to sell, but until then–and depending on the quality of the product they get–I might need to bite the bullet and order from an international source.

Any tips or warnings are greatly appreciated and will help me save money and, more importantly, save film!

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I don't have the reference to hand but I recall Kodak only recommend about 3 rolls (or sheets of 8"x10") per litre of Flexicolor developer, so depending on your use, you may get through more than anticipated. There is also the Fujihunt 5L kit.

Tom

 

[koraks]

I would guess that the 3-roll/liter estimate is very conservative. I don't use the Kodak chemistry but a home brew developer that is unlikely to have greater capacity and 150ml easily develops a roll of 135 and even a second one without (to me) visible differences. That brings the capacity to at least 6-12 rolls per liter.

 

[Tim V]

Thanks guys. All information is good, especially if it helps save me money in the long run.

The 3005 expert drum has a max chemistry load of 1L and can take 5 sheets of 8x10” film. Even if I cut back to 4 sheets per run, that’s still good going.

How long do the bottles keep once open / mixed? Could you use them over a week after opening to do first batch and not have to worry about them oxidising / going off before 7 days is up? I’m assuming the developer is most sensitive in terms of oxidisation?

Lastly, what’s the advantage of using seperate bleach and fix baths vs BLIX?

Thanks again, just trying to get my ducks in a row before investing in importing chemicals (and waiting an eternity for the to arrive...)

 

[bernard_L]

Another way, but requires planning and some favorable circumstances; grab some one who visits a country where deliveries are possible, and also enroll a local in that country to take delivery. Or an acquaintance visiting from that foreign country (simpler, only one person involved). As far as I know, there are not the same restrictions on checked luggage as on shipped goods: in 2005 (IIRC; post-2001 anyway) I flew back from US to France with a bottle of HC-110 in my checked luggage; my luggage was opened by TSA or whatever (left small note inside); my HC-110 was still there at destination and lasted 10 years with constant quality .

 

[koraks]

I can't comment on how long the concentrates last, at least the developer. The fix and bleach last a long time, that's for sure. Many months up to a few years. As to the developer: I know of people who mix the Fuji minilab developer to working strength and store it in small glass bottles with no air on top. Apparently it lasts many months or up to a year this way. I haven't tried this myself; as I said, I mix my own developer and discard is after a single use or after a few days maximum.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I would guess that the 3-roll/liter estimate is very conservative. I don't use the Kodak chemistry but a home brew developer that is unlikely to have greater capacity and 150ml easily develops a roll of 135 and even a second one without (to me) visible differences. That brings the capacity to at least 6-12 rolls per liter.

I suspect it depends on the type and speed of film as well. I had run into some quality problems when processing 5x 400 ISO C-41 films in 1000ml developer, so went looking for the figures after that.

 

[RPC]

As indicated earlier, mix the developer and store it in full, glass, tightly sealed bottles and it can last a long time. I have gotten more than a year. At least this has been my experience with Kodak developer. I would try to get Kodak or Fuji, they would be the most trusted for overall quality. Note that if a developer is sold as a replenisher only, as some are, you will need to buy starter as well, to make a working solution.

A separate bleach and fix is preferable to a blix because a blix will have a shorter shelf life after mixing, and in general is not as effective in removing all the silver from the film as a separate bleach and fix is.

 

[mshchem]

With that beautiful machine I would use Kodak Flexicolor C-41 LU developer and Flexicolor C-41 RA Bleach and Fixer, wash your film and use Flexicolor final rinse in distilled water. In the US we can buy each component in 5 liter packages. The developer replenisher makes about 6 liters of working solution that keeps well in very full containers . The developer replenisher is 13 usd per 5 liter packs. The bleach lasts for years if replenished. Developer and fixer are so cheap I use one shot.

 

[Toasty]

I liked using Flexicolor but you can't find the bleach/fix in small quantities anymore from Unique Photo. I tried the Rollei Colorchem and I hated it, I got weird colors from the very first roll. The powder Tetenal was not great, the powder blix is too weak. The Cinestill liquid kit isn't bad and with their specified times and temp (39C vs 38C) and longer BLIX times I had good results and none of the weird under bleaching colors. I don't have a Jobo but my system is dialed in for time and temp, sous vide for temp control and all my mercury thermometers are accurate to my Kodak Process Type 3.

 

[Tim V]

Thanks again, guys. I can't seem to find anywhere that sells the Felxicolor LU LORR developer (B&H lists it as discontinued?)

The other thing is that on the Kodak Alaris website, they don't list rotary tube processing as a primary recommendation. I assume this doesn't mean 'don't use it in rotary' as people here seem to be getting good results, but why do you think this might be?

https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/retailers-and-photofinishers/chemistry-agx/flexicolor-chemicals-c41

 

[Toasty]

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-dev-starter-lorr-1-2l-6601074/

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/c-41-dev-repl-lorr-tm-5l-ek-kodak-xhaz-hazsp1-832-0608-8231672/

 

[MattKing]

Thanks again, guys. I can't seem to find anywhere that sells the Felxicolor LU LORR developer (B&H lists it as discontinued?)

The other thing is that on the Kodak Alaris website, they don't list rotary tube processing as a primary recommendation. I assume this doesn't mean 'don't use it in rotary' as people here seem to be getting good results, but why do you think this might be?

https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/retailers-and-photofinishers/chemistry-agx/flexicolor-chemicals-c41

The problem with the chart you have linked to is that it is directed to photofinishers. The plain Flexicolour developer - not replenisher, and not LORR - was the recommended developer for use in tubes.
Try an email to profilm@kodakalaris.com. Please report back .

 

[mshchem]

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-dev-starter-lorr-1-2l-6601074/

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/c-41-dev-repl-lorr-tm-5l-ek-kodak-xhaz-hazsp1-832-0608-8231672/

This is exactly where I get my C41 chemicals. Unique photo sells in less than case quantities. I highly recommend the C-41 RA BLEACH AND FIXER. The bleach time is cut to a minute .

 

[Mr Bill]

The other thing is that on the Kodak Alaris website, they don't list rotary tube processing as a primary recommendation. I assume this doesn't mean 'don't use it in rotary' as people here seem to be getting good results, but why do you think this might be?

The problem with the chart you have linked to is that it is directed to photofinishers. The plain Flexicolour developer - not replenisher, and not LORR - was the recommended developer for use in tubes.

Matt is right as to the reason you don't see rotary processing listed; photofinishers with any substantial volume use different kinds of processing machines.

As to why "this might be," well essentially the rotary-style machines are tremendously wasteful with respect to the amount of chemicals used per roll. Very roughly these machines can make your chemical costs 5 to 10 times higher, on a per roll basis, than with a well operated "continuous" type processing machine.

I know there are a lot of Jobo users here, and they may take issue with such a statement. Rather than just throw it out there I'm gonna support this in the rest of this post. No need to read on if you don't really care.

I've spent probably about half of my working life being heavily involved with high-volume processing, mainly overseeing what we call "process control," loosely the measurement (and control) of how well the actual processing conforms to standards. In my case we also oversaw the results of the chem mix operations, specifying the particular chems for various labs, as well as all the chem analysis for regeneration where this was useful. Plus doing yearly audits on chemical usage/costs vs material processed. So I've been pretty intimately familiar with the chemical/processing aspects of the color neg/paper systems.

You can get more complete info on the C-41 process by downloading the Z-131 manual, farther down on that page you linked to. This is sort of the "bible" for C-41 processing. It's probably way more info then you want, but... Z-131 has one section that includes rotary processing - see Table 3-6 for "Capacity of Unreplenished Solutions." They are explicit that the chemicals should not be reused, and list "capacity" per liter of developer as roughly 3 or 4 rolls per nominal roll, depending on film type, etc. So you can look at this as using about 250ml of developer per "roll." Now, if you did commercial processing with a "continuous" machine, you would want to look at Table 2.2 for replenishment rates (they don't use the term "capacity" per liter, or whatever, anymore, but rather how much replenisher is needed per unit of film). To compare the usage rate, you can see that 35mm perforated film needs about 5.5 ml of LORR replenisher per foot of film. So a liter of that replenisher can do about 182 feet of film; at roughly 5 ft per roll this is about 36 rolls.

Let me clarify this. In a continuous process machine, at a LORR developer replenisher rate of 5.5 ml per foot of 35mm film, you can essentially process ~36 rolls of film, 135-36, per liter. By comparison, Kodak's spec for the rotary processor (aka Jobo), give a capacity per liter of "developer" as roughly 3 or 4 rolls. In other words, the Jobo-style processor seems to make the developer cost about 10 times higher, per roll, than a continuous-type commercial processor. This is one reason why large commercial finishers don't use machines like that.

Now this is not strictly an apples to apples comparison. First, I compared LORR replenisher to "developer" (processing tank solution). When you use LORR replenisher to make "developer" (adding water plus starter solution) you will get considerably more than the original replenisher (I don't know how much, offhand). And, when you use a replenishment system, you need to put extra labor into the maintenance and monitoring of that system. So you have to be doing enough processing to make it worthwhile.

 

[mshchem]

Kodak Alaris Z-131 Section 3 Table 3-5 Steps and Conditions—Rotary-Tube Processors, Process C-41 RA

PREWARM DRUM NO PRE-RINSE 2-6 MINUTES
FLEXICOLOR DEVELOPER 3 MINUTES 15 SECONDS 100°F
FLEXICOLOR RA BLEACH NR 1 MINUTE 100°F
FLEXICOLOR RA FIXER 2 MINUTES 100°F
WASH 2 MINUTES 100°F
FLEXICOLOR STABILIZER III 1 MINUTE 75 - 100°F
DRY

Use bleach to rated capacity and discard.
DO NOT replenish developer or fixer. Use once and discard.

My comments. With Jobo you use 140mL for 1 35mm roll. The developer replenisher 5 liter pack makes about 6 liters of working tank solution that's around 40 rolls. The bleach is expensive but can be reused to capacity. I have replenished the bleach when using a Jobo, but KODAK DOESN'T RECOMMEND THIS.
The Fixer is cheap . Stabilizer is used off the machine, cheap.

 

[mshchem]

Here's the Developer I get from Unique .The replenisher is 14 usd for 5 liters. The starter is reasonable and 1 bottle will a lifetime.

The close up is the starter bottle to make Developer you take 763mL of the Replenisher (this is the 5 L ), 30 mL of the starter and 207mL of water. Use this developer once and toss if you are using a Jobo . If you are using tanks that use general agitation you use the replenisher to top off the developer

 

[Tim V]

Thanks again, all. I have a suspicion the Unique won’t / can’t ship to New Zealand but I will contact them. Thanks again!

 

[mshchem]

Service-Anz@kodakalaris.com

Contact Kodak Alaris in your region. I looked there's supply houses in Australia, they deal in large quantities. The Kodak Flexicolor products are made in China, not sure how things are distributed. Look at the sticky thread for color chemicals here. You have the nicest processor you can buy. I would find a shop in your area that processes film and see if you can buy from them.
My local shop has sold me C41 and RA4 chemicals, but he buys them in bulk.

 

[kiwivagabond]

Dear all,

I'm new to C41 processing having just bought a Jobo CPP3. I'm looking to begin processing 8x10" and 4x5" film in expert drums, and I'm wondering if there is a quality and reliability difference between the different brands of chemicals? I know C41 is a standard process, but I have heard anecdotally that some brands are more prone to streaking and other defects and considering the cost and preciousness of 8x10" film I don't want to take any chances.

The complicating factor is that I live in New Zealand and will have to import my chemical kits. Most stores will not ship a good portion of chemicals to NZ, but these are some of the options I see that I can perhaps get hold of via 'slow boat' shipping.

• UNICOLOR powder kit
• Kodak Flexicolor (massive quantities though, how to partial bottles of the developer keep? Can't imagine getting through 20L very fast unless I bank up film and process in massive batches.)
• Tetenal Colortec (Shipping is limited or prohibited by most places, but I think Fotoimpex can find a way...)
• Film Photography Project C41 kit (Cheap, but is it any good?)
• Rollei Digibase Kit (again from Fotoimpex, who I think offer ground shipping only.)
• CiniStill Cs41 powder kits (as above)

Getting this stuff in NZ is very hard and expensive. A very good local store is looking at bringing in a product to sell, but until then–and depending on the quality of the product they get–I might need to bite the bullet and order from an international source.

Any tips or warnings are greatly appreciated and will help me save money and, more importantly, save film!

Hi Tim, I know Hayden Himburg at southern cameras has some cinestill kits in ....and spoken for......also try nzphotchem on TradeMe...he may have a Digibase kit there. Where are you in NZ...i am about to start the colour journey......excited about it.

graham
0276129930 whangarei

 

[mshchem]

SUPPLIERS OPPORTUNITY! If I was Tetenal or Fotoimpex etc. might be an opportunity for a annual or semi annual subscription event to import everything analog. I'm sure there all kinds of reasons that make this difficult, but sounds like a under served market.

 

[Tim V]

It’s awful here for photographics. $37.50 +GST to process just one 8x10” sheet of C41... The Jobo is a wise investment!

 

[mshchem]

It’s awful here for photographics. $37.50 +GST to process just one 8x10” sheet of C41... The Jobo is a wise investment!

I'm assuming you are talking NZD, still that's over 25 bucks US. How much is GST?

That's crazy. How big of a deal is customs! You could buy a boat load of C41 from someone in the US. I had a guy buy a lens from me. I had a local shop sell it on Ebay. The buyer was in Australia I think the post office collected customs.

I would get with your shops and see if you can buy through them. Kodak should be able to help too.

 

[Tim V]

Yes, NZD. One sheet of 4x5” C41 costs $NZD17.50 +GST (15%) so that’s even more insane considering surface area.

Kodak aren’t really present in NZ anymore, only in a tangential sense really. The market for the whole country is smaller than one of Australia’s large cities, if that. That’s why most people import everything if they can.

Thankfully there are a few great, locally run specialty stores opening up again which is helping. I will try through one of them first before resorting to making a bulk import order.

 

[mshchem]

Yes, NZD. One sheet of 4x5” C41 costs $NZD17.50 +GST (15%) so that’s even more insane considering surface area.

Kodak aren’t really present in NZ anymore, only in a tangential sense really. The market for the whole country is smaller than one of Australia’s large cities, if that. That’s why most people import everything if they can.

Thankfully there are a few great, locally run specialty stores opening up again which is helping. I will try through one of them first before resorting to making a bulk import order.

Any shop that processes C41 will have chemistry you can use. Even if you have to break open the cartridges for Fuji machines.