benefits/drawbacks of tele lenses

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DREW WILEY

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I already have four different 360's, so even if I could find one and could afford it, I'll probably never be able to test the 360 ATX myself. No need for a tele on my own 4x5's, esp the Norma where I routinely use an 18 inch (450 mm) rail, plus extra endcap pr length. I even have a 28 inch Horseman bellows if I need it, which doesn't require an intermediate support like the Sinar bellows at that long of an extension. When shooting long lenses, monorail cameras like this are wonderful.
 

CreationBear

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Drew, I'd like to see a "shootout" between some of your equipment: say, your Norma 4x5 with a Fuji C 600 and a Pentax 67 with an M* 300mm or 400mm. My guess would be unless you're shooting in absolutely optimal weather conditions (no wind, low humidity, no particulates) the 6x7 negative would be noticeably sharper every time...and thus support a larger print.

My question, then--allowing for boilerplate regarding composing in-camera, etc.--if you've got a finely calibrated enlarging system back in your warm, snug darkroom, why sweat the vagaries of using such a long lens in the field? Or to put it another way, if you can get a razor sharp negative with one of your 360mm's at any give time, why not crop to the equivalent FOV?
 

138S

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Or to put it another way, if you can get a razor sharp negative with one of your 360mm's at any give time, why not crop to the equivalent FOV?

If you have to crop an 4x5 negative, then a better choice may be using a 360mm in a MF camera. A lens covering only MF can be better than the LF lens, the more format coverage a lens has the more difficult (or expensive) is keeping performance across all image circle.

Of course we always can crop, if we want.
 

CreationBear

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138S-- Ah, I'm definitely a fan of the lenses for the Pentax 67 system, so no argument there! What I'm trying to think through is what the return-on-investment would be for lenses longer than, say, 360mm, for field use with a 4x5. (Like Drew, I'm rolling with a Norma, though a 5x7 with reducing back.) Obviously everyone's needs are different--for instance, I'm finding lately that I need all of the rise I can get--but at a some point I suspect a lot of money goes chasing after increasingly marginal improvements in IQ.
 

DREW WILEY

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Creation Bear - Absolutely not! 4x5 film always holds more detail if one knows what they doing. For thing, 6x7 is only about a third the film area as 4x5 (though apples to apples, a 450 Fuji C would be the correct comparison in 4x5 format; I only shoot the 600C with 8x10 film). Second, a view camera allows plane of focus control, which the 6x7 does not, and 300 teles have very shallow depth of field. But in distant shots, the atmosphere itself is often the limiting factor either way (haze, heat waves etc.). With b&w film, a red filter can cut through haze with the 300EDIF, but not quite as successfully with the older P67 300 teles which are not as well red corrected (a deep 22 orange works better with them). All my view camera lenses are superbly corrected. But windy conditions tend to favor the P67 tele, provided it's on a very substantial tripod. I actually use the same larger Ries wooden tripod for the 300EDIF as for 8x10, and bolt the camera directly to the platform top - no tripod head at all. It makes a big difference in sharpness. But the 300EDIF also focuses relatively close, so is useful for a lot more things than infinity scenes. As far as 360's, my favorite is the Fujinon A, which is wonderful on 8x10, 4x5, and even 6x9 roll film. What you need to appreciate in terms of wt and portability is that all the extension in a view camera is done with a lighwt bellows. You don't need a big metal cannon barrel like MF telephoto. You can carry at least four compact LF lenses for less wt than a 300 EDIF, and with a Sinar 4x5 field monorail, support the system free of vibration for about a third the tripod weight. But I'm a format schizophrenic, and sometimes that 300EDIF is soooo much fun, and optically superb too.
 
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CreationBear

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Drew-- Excellent, you mentioned the 28" Horseman bellows, so I was thinking you were racked out to 600mm--450 makes a lot more sense to me as an upper limit. At any rate, you're right about the P67 being a pig, though there's been a 400 M* EDIF listed here and elsewhere that's been a constant temptation for me lately--throw in a late version of the 55/4 and that's a two lens kit I could see taking back-of-beyond.
 

DREW WILEY

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There's no issue with a 600 prime lens per se on a monorail. Just add more rail. But with a monorail, having any no.3 shutter way out at the end that far will likely give some vibration issues, esp if wind conditions are added. The 450C is in a little no.1 shutter instead, with minimal vibration. Otherwise, I notice that the prices of 400M's have dropped somewhat, and 300M's a bit too. A 400 is too long for me, but looks like an impressive optic. I like carrying the 300M and a second body with a 75/4.5 together because they share the same 82mm filters. I also have an excellent quality Nikon adapter which gives the 300M even more versatility. I once had a 55 and it was extremely sharp as well. Just too wide for me, but I did get a few great shots with it. My brother borrowed my P67 for about ten years, and loved the 55. Although he once sold Rollei and Linhof gear, and had a couple of expensive SL66 outfits, he preferred the ergonomics of my P67.
 

138S

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There's no issue with a 600 prime lens per se on a monorail. Just add more rail.

Not a problem with a 600, not a problem with a 6000... we may have to add some tripods anyway.

Reinhart at work:

Sin título-1.jpg
 

CreationBear

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Ha, excellent--I've never seen a print of R. Wolf's work, but one of the Fuller Building from his NYC project must be pretty cool. At any rate, thanks everyone for the feedback--you're not helping my bank balance, however.
 

Nokton48

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That is from "Castles in Spain". Old Style 1000mm Zeiss lens I think. I have the 800mm and 890mm Apo Ronars and I want to try this type of rig. :smile: Glenn Evans forward mounted my 800mm F9 (on a custom milled Norma board and tube) to work with my Norma shutters a few years ago. It's also a beast of a lens, beautiful to use.

The only thing I would add are the rare Norma Clamps (which I have just acquired) and the red Stabilizing Rods (I have a bunch of those). I will also use two FOBA C40 which were designed to seamlessly work with the 8x10 Norma. They are in the Norma catalog and weigh a ton but do the job wonderfully. And they set up in seconds with push button super speed.

All of Wolf's work (and many books) are over the top. I think I have all of his books? "New York" is my favorite being the first I am aware of. Today I enjoyed revisiting "Villas of the Veneto" which is another photographic tour de force.
 
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CreationBear

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Very impressive--approaching "crew served" proportions, though: I think I'd roll with a key grip and focus puller.:smile: (FWIW, Christopher Burkett's color work induces delusions of grandeur in me as well--it really does seem to be a great strategy for tackling a cramped, deciduous forest though.)
 

138S

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That is from "Castles in Spain". Old Style 1000mm Zeiss lens I think.

Quoting Arne Croell: "Reinhart Wolf used the Apo-Ronars 360mm, 480mm, 600mm, and 1000mm for his 8x10 photos of New York skyscrapers (in the book "New York") and of Spanish castles ("Castillos"). That is quality assurance enough for me. "

That one pictured should be the 1000, I guess...


As of 1994 the following ronars were available:

Apo-Ronar
150mm f9

Apo-Ronar CL
240mm f9
300mm f9
360mm f9
480mm f9
485mm f9
600mm f9
760mm f14
800mm f9
890mm f14
1000mm f14
1000mm f16
1070mm f14
1200mm f14
1200mm f16
1800mm f16

In 1987 there was also:
Apo-Ronar-CL
520mm f9

Peter K : "To adjust a lens like an Apo-Ronar or G-Claron for infinity work one can follow the procedure described in "Internationale Phototechnik" 8/1993."

This is about adding some shims to make corners shaper when focusing distant subjects, as Ronars were mostly optimize for close work.
 
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Nokton48

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Nokton48

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The earlier rig photo in "New York" shows the 1000mm with a 5x7 Norma Back.

Quite possible a 5x7 Norma Rear Standard at the front end of the 1000mm. Quite clever and unique. :smile:

Does anyone know any more details on this?
 
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jim10219

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I think the first thing you have to ask yourself, is are you taking photos of anything that requires a long lens? I find with 4x5 and up, the whole point of using larger negatives is to get more detail on wider angles. If you just need a tight shot, often times you can get by with some cropping on a normal lens. That being said, there are certain circumstances where a long lens is required. The depth of field being one of them. But it's not like on smaller formats where long lenses are a must in your collection.

As for the smaller image circled of tele's, this is true. But since we're talking about longer lenses anyway, you usually still have plenty of image circle to work with. My 360mm Tele-Xenar has plenty of image circle for anything I've ever used it on, on my 4x5's. It'll do a 5x7 too, but the image circle might be small enough on that format to give issues, depending on what you're trying to accomplish. And tilt movements are weird, but not frustratingly so. You can still figure them out. My Tele-Xenar is also plenty sharp for most things. Is it my sharpest lens? Heck no. Is it my softest? Not even close. It just feels about normal to me.

Though the real advantage of a tele vs normal lens is that the tele's really come in handy with close up photography. It's one thing to have a lens 360mm out. It's something else to have it 720mm doing a macro shot.
 
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abruzzi

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I think the first thing you have to ask yourself, is are you taking photos of anything that requires a long lens?

thanks for the comments. I do, generally much prefer longer lenses to shorter. On 35, I don’t shoot wider than 50 that often. I prefer my 85 and 105. I like the isolation and depth compression. I’ve never shot longer than 210 on 4x5, but I feel like I’d want to. I did some image circle research, and can say that, he’s they have smaller circles than equivalent focal length standard lenses, but when you. Get to 300mm lenses, many of the standard lenses have huge image circles appropriate for 8x10. The Fujinon-T 300mm has a 213mm circle compared to 420 or 720(!) for most of their non-tele lenses. 213 isn’t huge , but it’s enough to get some movement (assuming the spec is not just the size of the illumination, but the size of acceptable sharp/corrected/etc.

my limitation is mostly the Shen Hao which can get to 360mm but that is through some funky hacks, and straight up, it is closer to 300. The Technika has a lot more bellows, so is less limited.
 

138S

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Nokton48

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I have a 59cm F9 Zeiss Apo Planar that is absolutely great for my uses. I showed it once to Ron Wisner (we were investigating a humungeous buyout together at the time). He told me it was "worth every single penny I paid". Ate pizza and drank beer late into the night. What a hoot.

I have all the Apo Ronars in barrel from 150mm f9 (have a few) up to the 890mm F11, excepting the 485mm. They are all useful to me. Everything mounted on Norma boards. The 150mm F9 is a gem of a lens. The 890 is more light and compact being an F11.
 
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abruzzi

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Ansel Adams used a 580 mm focal to shot "Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico" (1941), perhaps his most famous image, this would be 290mm equivalent in 4x5". Some people think that only short focals work well for landscaps, but YMMV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonrise,_Hernandez,_New_Mexico

Yeah, another good example is Delicate Arch in Arches National Park. You can hike to the arch itself, but the angle you usually see is from an observation point near the arch, but you cant get directly from that observation point to the arch, so "zoom with your feet" has some impassable stuff making it impossible.
 

Dan Fromm

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Some people think that only short focals work well for landscaps, but YMMV.

In my experience, broad vistas shot with lenses much shorter than normal come out all foreground. Landscapes in which the horizon is near, no more than 100 feet away, work better with lenses much shorter than normal.
 

DREW WILEY

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Just do what's instinctive. I lean toward long perspectives in all formats, but have done plenty of moderately wide shots too. But there are easier ways to do it than multiple tripods. I shoot a Norma too, but Reinhart obviously wasn't a backpacker. In fact, I don't encounter any backpackers wearing ties, regardless of camera size. The whole point is to be uncivilized. Apo Nikkors graphics lenses are wonderful distance optics; but it's just so much easier to tote around Fuji C's.
 
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Kilgallb

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I think the first thing you have to ask yourself, is are you taking photos of anything that requires a long lens? I find with 4x5 and up, the whole point of using larger negatives is to get more detail on wider angles. If you just need a tight shot, often times you can get by with some cropping on a normal lens
I could not agree more.

I find my 90mm superangulon when cropped to the same composition as my 210mm is actually sharper. I only use the 210 when I want to do something with the front tilt and focus plane to make parts less sharp.

I shoot landscapes.
 

138S

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In my experience, broad vistas shot with lenses much shorter than normal come out all foreground. Landscapes in which the horizon is near, no more than 100 feet away, work better with lenses much shorter than normal.

Yes... this is about managing depth !!
 

DREW WILEY

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View camera allow plane of focus tilts and shifts, which open up all kinds of possibilities for longer lenses. I shot everything long-lens for about a decade before I ever even purchased a wide angle lens, and that was mainly for architectural use. And certainly nobody can accuse me of making unsharp prints. Wider lenses are only one way to manage depth of field issues. Don't strategically limit your tool kit.
 
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