Beginner looking at simple large format cameras. (Box? Fixed lens?)

So a few weeks ago I posted that I was trying to find a 4x5 camera, in regards to landscape and building photos.. (scroll down and you'll see it, alot of great advice) but honestly, I feel overwelmed and started thinking "simpler" would be the way for me. I wont be doing all day affairs of photography.

Ive been using a 4x5 pinhole camera which I enjoy, and plan to keep using. For medium format, Ive been playing with old brownies and box cameras in 120, 616 and 620.. I feel pretty happy with that. Obviously theres restrictions with box cameras and pinholes but Im thinking..

.. where I am at logically would be to go for a box or fixed lens 4x5 camera. Something a little faster. Something that would take a sheet holder. If it were box, I could add a nut for a tripod if needed. (I feel like mono rails, folders, might be too pricey, involve too much fiddling etc that Im just not prepared for) I genuinely want to just shoot some film and enjoy the van dyke, cyanotype contact printing process. I wont be hiking to a location anytime soon, it would be driving around town, getting down at a cemetery or rice mill and taking a few shots after work.

Any ideas or suggestions on what im looking for? Im at a loss name brand wise or even what to google or ebay.

Fixed lens box cameras in 4x5 were a thing about 120 years ago -- really, from about 1880 until 1920 or so. Most were made for glass plates, but anything that uses glass plates can be used with modern sheet film in a film sheath. There were some made to use film/plate holders (though often not the standardized Graphic type holders we think of now), others were "falling plate" holding half a dozen, up to ten or so plates retained with springs and a toggle; moving the toggle would release one plate and hold the next (and those behind) while a spring pushed the stack forward to keep the film plane constant; exposed plate landed in the bottom of the camera box, mostly protected from exposure by a light baffle. It was important to keep these upright...

It's really easy to build a simple box to mount a 4x5 film holder and lens. You can add a little sophistication with two nested boxes that slide in and out to focus (though you'll then need a ground glass at the correct film plane as well, to be replaced by the film holder).

Hi CJ

I am a huge fan of this sort of LF photography. There are a few different types of inexpensive ( that is a relative term ) cameras that might be suited to your needs. back in the day ( I mean the late 1800s early 1900s ) they made all sorts of box type cameras for dry plates. I have a couple I am fond of one of them is abundant the other 2 don't come up on auction sites very often... the Delmar Box Camera takes modern film holders and like all of these simple cameras enough of a "choke" on the simple Meniscus* lens that you don't need to worry about unfocused images ( its stopped down to about f9 or 10 ). sometimes you can find this camera on Etsy or Eboink, you have to do a search using the term "box camera" "antique camera" .. its a lot of weeding through because they are usually unmarked with no maker..
the site "boxcameras.com" ( https://web.archive.org/web/20040522195913/http://www.boxcameras.com/ ) has oodles of images of these old big box cameras that might give you other things and names/brands &c to search for...
the other type of camera to look at is a cyclone falling plate camera ( the 3 is kind of rare, real clunker bare bones, the #5 is abundant, has variable f-stops and is up-scale for a box camera ). if you go the falling plate camera route make sure the seller has all the septi you will spend a long time looking for ones to add into your camera if you don't have all 8 or 12 of them. I searched for almost 20 years to find septi for my #3 and ended up buying a 2nd camera ( had never seen another one for sale as mentioned they are not abundant ), the plates were proprietary sizes and styles and are not interchangeable even between cameras the same format and the same brand but a different model.. all 3 of these cameras were 4x5 cameras and are capable of making wonderful images on paper or film or if you want glass plates. if you go the paper or film route you will have to experiment to figure out the shutter speed and fstop, you will have to put a piece of single ply mat board (black!) in the septi to take up the plate/to film slack and you might have to figure out a way to keep the film or paper from slipping down off the septi as they wait to be exposed.. ingenious designs. they used stacks of these septi with a spring to apply pressure .. user made the exposure then jiggled the knob on the camera and the exposed plate fell to the bottom of the camera ( that's where they got the name .. also called a magazine camera )
now if you don't need exactly 4x5 but could imagine yourself using a negative a little smaller or not rectangular like a 4x5 negative there are all sorts of other style falling plate cameras some make long and skinny images, some 1/4 plate ( there are some cyclones that do that ). ... and there is https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...style-falling-plate-camera-from-paris.186950/
that a known and trusted photrio member is selling .. totally beautiful not too expensive and is complete .. it makes images that aren't as large as 4x5 and they will look just beautiful contact printed on 8x10 paper... im kind of a falling plate/box camera junkie so if you buy this camera instead of me I won't have to go into recovery...
good luck finding what works for you !
John

ps. these cameras typically were stopped down so the x-mm difference between film and paper and plate don't really amount to much.. you will have to experiment to learn the sweet spot where things are infocus and not &c..

* not sure if it is a simple meniscus or a Wollaston

Lessee now. OP, you want to shoot LF but find it complicated and are now looking for a simple way. I don't know whether you know this already, but whatever you do will be wrong.

Given that, the best way to learn what it is like in practice is to do it. And the best way to learn the ideas behind the doing is to read a good book. So, a couple of modest proposals.

First, an annotated list of some highly recommended books on LF:

Adams, Ansel. 1980. The Camera. Little, Brown and Company. New York. 203 pp.
ISBN 0-8212-1092-0, 0-8212-2184-1
https://kupdf.net/download/the-camera-ansel-adams-df_590f343ddc0d608b78959ecf_pdf
Not archive, possibly a pirated copy. If so, liable to be taken down at any time. Not the
most highly recommended, but if its free ...

Simmons, Steve. 2015. Using the View Camera: A Creative Guide to Large Format
Photography. Echo Point Books & Media. 146 pp. ISBN 1626540772, 978-
1626540774. There are many editions. Highly recommended on the US large format
forum.

Stone, Jim. 2003. A User’s Guide to the View Camera. Pearson. 166 pp. ISBN
0130981168, 978-0130981165. There are many editions. Highly recommended on the
French large format forum even though it is in English.

Stroebel, Leslie D. 1999. View Camera Technique. Focal Press. 376 pp. ISBN
0240803450, 9780240803456. There are many editions. Highly recommended on the
US large format forum.

Buy one of these books and read it.

Second, camera and lens:

Buy a 4x5 Graphic, the Crown Graphic is simpler than the Speed Graphic so get a Crown, with whatever lens is on it. Play with the camera with your LF book ready to hand. Buy some film holders, an exposure meter, and some film. Crowns often have rangefinders but there's no guarantee that the RF is calibrated for the lens on the camera, so if you don't have a tripod that you trust buy one, also a loupe to make focusing on the ground glass easier. Go shooting.

If you find that you don't like your Crown Graphic, sell it and move on.

Dan Fromm said:

Lessee now. OP, you want to shoot LF but find it complicated and are now looking for a simple way. I don't know whether you know this already, but whatever you do will be wrong.

Given that, the best way to learn what it is like in practice is to do it. And the best way to learn the ideas behind the doing is to read a good book. So, a couple of modest proposals.

First, an annotated list of some highly recommended books on LF:

Adams, Ansel. 1980. The Camera. Little, Brown and Company. New York. 203 pp.
ISBN 0-8212-1092-0, 0-8212-2184-1
https://kupdf.net/download/the-camera-ansel-adams-df_590f343ddc0d608b78959ecf_pdf
Not archive, possibly a pirated copy. If so, liable to be taken down at any time. Not the
most highly recommended, but if its free ...

Simmons, Steve. 2015. Using the View Camera: A Creative Guide to Large Format
Photography. Echo Point Books & Media. 146 pp. ISBN 1626540772, 978-
1626540774. There are many editions. Highly recommended on the US large format
forum.

Stone, Jim. 2003. A User’s Guide to the View Camera. Pearson. 166 pp. ISBN
0130981168, 978-0130981165. There are many editions. Highly recommended on the
French large format forum even though it is in English.

Stroebel, Leslie D. 1999. View Camera Technique. Focal Press. 376 pp. ISBN
0240803450, 9780240803456. There are many editions. Highly recommended on the
US large format forum.

Buy one of these books and read it.

Second, camera and lens:

Buy a 4x5 Graphic, the Crown Graphic is simpler than the Speed Graphic so get a Crown, with whatever lens is on it. Play with the camera with your LF book ready to hand. Buy some film holders, an exposure meter, and some film. Crowns often have rangefinders but there's no guarantee that the RF is calibrated for the lens on the camera, so if you don't have a tripod that you trust buy one, also a loupe to make focusing on the ground glass easier. Go shooting.

If you find that you don't like your Crown Graphic, sell it and move on.

Click to expand...

Sorry. I shut down after the first paragraph.

jnantz said:

Hi CJ

I am a huge fan of this sort of LF photography. There are a few different types of inexpensive ( that is a relative term ) cameras that might be suited to your needs. back in the day ( I mean the late 1800s early 1900s ) they made all sorts of box type cameras for dry plates. I have a couple I am fond of one of them is abundant the other 2 don't come up on auction sites very often... the Delmar Box Camera takes modern film holders and like all of these simple cameras enough of a "choke" on the simple Wollaston Meniscus lens that you don't need to worry about unfocused images ( its stopped down to about f9 or 10 ). sometimes you can find this camera on Etsy or Eboink, you have to do a search using the term "box camera" "antique camera" .. its a lot of weeding through because they are usually unmarked with no maker..
the site "boxcameras.com" ( https://web.archive.org/web/20040522195913/http://www.boxcameras.com/ ) has oodles of images of these old big box cameras that might give you other things and names/brands &c to search for...
the other type of camera to look at is a cyclone falling plate camera ( the 3 is kind of rare, real clunker bare bones, the #5 is abundant, has variable f-stops and is up-scale for a box camera ). if you go the falling plate camera route make sure the seller has all the septi you will spend a long time looking for ones to add into your camera if you don't have all 8 or 12 of them. I searched for almost 20 years to find septi for my #3 and ended up buying a 2nd camera ( had never seen another one for sale as mentioned they are not abundant ), the plates were proprietary sizes and styles and are not interchangeable even between cameras the same format and the same brand but a different model.. all 3 of these cameras were 4x5 cameras and are capable of making wonderful images on paper or film or if you want glass plates. if you go the paper or film route you will have to experiment to figure out the shutter speed and fstop, you will have to put a piece of single ply mat board (black!) in the septi to take up the plate/to film slack and you might have to figure out a way to keep the film or paper from slipping down off the septi as they wait to be exposed.. ingenious designs. they used stacks of these septi with a spring to apply pressure .. user made the exposure then jiggled the knob on the camera and the exposed plate fell to the bottom of the camera ( that's where they got the name .. also called a magazine camera )
now if you don't need exactly 4x5 but could imagine yourself using a negative a little smaller or not rectangular like a 4x5 negative there are all sorts of other style falling plate cameras some make long and skinny images, some 1/4 plate ( there are some cyclones that do that ). ... and there is https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...style-falling-plate-camera-from-paris.186950/
that a known and trusted photrio member is selling .. totally beautiful not too expensive and is complete .. it makes images that aren't as large as 4x5 and they will look just beautiful contact printed on 8x10 paper... im kind of a falling plate/box camera junkie so if you buy this camera instead of me I won't have to go into recovery...
good luck finding what works for you !
John

ps. these cameras typically were stopped down so the x-mm difference between film and paper and plate don't really amount to much.. you will have to experiment to learn the sweet spot where things are infocus and not &c..

Click to expand...

Thank you for all the information! Ill start looking up names. Any other names you can suggest?
If sheet film (4x5) can fit into it, that would be great. Ill have to look up how the holders work. I did read an article about how one person found the holders dropped easily with no paper or glass in them, which is good to know.

Also thank you for the suggestion on finding one with sheet holders already present. Thats crazy it took you 20 years to find more of the same!

cyclone 5's are always on the eBoink. ..
and it looks like a Delmar too
looks like your lucky day!

Dan Fromm said:

I don't know whether you know this already, but whatever you do will be wrong.

Click to expand...

you're funny. why is using a low fi camera that takes sheet film wrong? they are portable fun, difficult to use, handholdable, finicky, clunky. .. not everyone wants to use a modern camera or lens ( by comparison to a box camera ) ... just like not everyone like photographing birds with a 10,000$ nikon or their food with a cellphone or portraits using a vintage petzval lens and wet plate... and if the OP decides he doesn't like the results he can scrape off the moroccan leather sand and varnish it and turn it into a planter or light or projector on Etsy, that's where a lot of cool cameras to go die...

jnantz said:

Wollaston Meniscus lens

Click to expand...

Hi John, how are you distinguishing this, is it by an aperture plate in front of the glass?

hi 4season.
I was told that if the convex curve of the lens is away from the film its a Wollaston Meniscus ..
BUT, I just looked it up ( Wollaston meniscus ). seems in all the diagrams the aperture is behind the lens ( between the lens and the film )
... maybe I'm passing on bum information and its just a regular meniscus ( I guess a simple Plano convex lens is an inverted Wollaston ) ?
sorry about that, I didn't mean to pass on misinformation!
John

jnantz said:

why is using a low fi camera that takes sheet film wrong?

Click to expand...

John, nearly everyone who takes up LF eventually decides that its first camera is the wrong camera.

Dan Fromm said:

John, nearly everyone who takes up LF eventually decides that its first camera is the wrong camera.

Click to expand...

hi dan
I didn't realize that.. I still have and use my first LF camera, its a speed graphic I guess I beat the odds ?

Candlejack said:

Sorry. I shut down after the first paragraph.

Click to expand...

You might want to swollen your pride and read Dan’s great advice. His bedside manner isn’t always smooth but his advise is gold. Only suggestion from me is to also consider a speed graphic. The crown seems to often cost more and only offers a bit less weight.

If you want faster, buy a Graflex Crown Graphic 4x5 and use it w/ a Grafmatic film holder. You can get 6 shots off lickity split w/ that. Those cameras are really not that heavy, and as soon as you open them, pull the lens out and cock the shutter, you're ready to shoot. The Speed Graphics are heavier, so that model wouldn't be my first choice.

These are extremely well designed, simple cameras w/ sound bellows, and they do come up for sale now and then for good prices. Some people think they're made of gold the way they price them, but you can be patient and find one for $200 or so. Maybe less. The Grafmatic will add cost to that though. It's very easy and affordable to switch out the lens/shutters on them too.

jnantz said:

BUT, I just looked it up ( Wollaston meniscus ). seems in all the diagrams the aperture is behind the lens ( between the lens and the film )
... maybe I'm passing on bum information and its just a regular meniscus ( I guess a simple Plano convex lens is an inverted Wollaston ) ?
sorry about that, I didn't mean to pass on misinformation!

Click to expand...

For any meniscus to give even box-camera image quality, the aperture needs to be f/11 or smaller and on the concave side of the lens (and by a specific distance relative to the focal length, by preference). The focal plane will be flatter if the lens is mounted concave to the world (i.e. behind the aperture), but most box camera manufacturers stopped doing this because of customer complaints along the lines of "where's the lens in my brand new camera (that cost me two bucks)?" I don't recall offhand which orientation is a Wollaston, but a Brownie Hawkeye, as sold, has the lens concave forward and mounted behind the aperture, avoiding the customer complaints with a flat glass window in front of the shutter (easily mistaken for a lens if you don't know what you're looking at). It has a pretty good image quality for one of the earliest plastic lenses, single element, fixed-everything. By contrast, a Holga has a similar lens (about the same focal length) mounted convex forward, with aperture and shutter behind -- and is (in)famous for its field curvature and overall softness. In my experience, these are pretty typical examples of what you can expect from a meniscus in its two orientations (though it's surely possible the Holga's is off optimum aperture spacing or otherwise not the best it could be).

The next step up, BTW, is two menisci concave to concave with the aperture between -- this can be as fast as f/8 and still give good quality, but again, spacing is moderately critical. A Speedex Jr. has this setup, and gives good sharpness all the way to the corners of the 6x6 frame (with f/11 or f/16, in this case). These are sometimes called Periskop, and if you change the menisci to plano-convex achromats and optimize again, it can become a Rapid Rectilinear, which was a real revolution back around 1880 (little chromatic aberration as well as all the advantages of a Periskop).

jnantz said:

hi dan
I didn't realize that.. I still have and use my first LF camera, its a speed graphic I guess I beat the odds ?

Click to expand...

LOL. My first was a Cambo monorail, which I also still use.

All but one of my “first” (of its type) is still in use. I must be either too thrifty or too afraid to change. But I prefer to think that good decisions were made based on reasonable analysis that considered both the short-term and long-term.

jnantz said:

I was told that if the convex curve of the lens is away from the film its a Wollaston Meniscus ..
BUT, I just looked it up ( Wollaston meniscus ). seems in all the diagrams the aperture is behind the lens ( between the lens and the film )
... maybe I'm passing on bum information and its just a regular meniscus ( I guess a simple Plano convex lens is an inverted Wollaston ) ?

Click to expand...

I just reviewed it too, and - does this sound correct to you - I get the sense that most toy-type cameras already have this sort of lens as you describe, including Holga, Powershovel's Plamodel, Gakkenflex TLR, etc. And in those cameras, it can be too extreme a lo-fi look for me. But are meniscus lenses capable of a subtler, more mid-fi look as implemented in say a Box Tengor?

Candlejack said:

.. where I am at logically would be to go for a box or fixed lens 4x5 camera. Something a little faster. Something that would take a sheet holder.

Click to expand...

@dirkfletcher makes very interesting large format cameras that might serve you well. You can check his creations on Flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dirkfletcher/albums

BrianShaw said:

You might want to swollen your pride and read Dan’s great advice. His bedside manner isn’t always smooth but his advise is gold. Only suggestion from me is to also consider a speed graphic. The crown seems to often cost more and only offers a bit less weight.

Click to expand...

Naw. I dont hang with those types of people

momus said:

If you want faster, buy a Graflex Crown Graphic 4x5 and use it w/ a Grafmatic film holder. You can get 6 shots off lickity split w/ that. Those cameras are really not that heavy, and as soon as you open them, pull the lens out and cock the shutter, you're ready to shoot. The Speed Graphics are heavier, so that model wouldn't be my first choice.

These are extremely well designed, simple cameras w/ sound bellows, and they do come up for sale now and then for good prices. Some people think they're made of gold the way they price them, but you can be patient and find one for $200 or so. Maybe less. The Grafmatic will add cost to that though. It's very easy and affordable to switch out the lens/shutters on them too.

Click to expand...

I have been reading about the crown grafix. Honestly if i went with one that was adjustable, that would fit within the price range and satisfy needs.

FWIW, I've got a 1940-ish Anniversary Speed, and I love it. However, I should also point out that a Speed Graphic was my dream camera from around 1970 until I finally got one in 2005.

Even with the focal plane shutter and Grafmatic, it's lighter than an RB67, has limited movements, a huge range of shutter speeds with fine gradation, and mine has a Kalart rangefinder that lets me shoot without needing the ground glass (handy with a Grafmatic).

If I could keep only a single camera, I'd have to think hard between the Annie and my RB67, but the Annie would probably win.

Donald Qualls said:

FWIW, I've got a 1940-ish Anniversary Speed, and I love it. However, I should also point out that a Speed Graphic was my dream camera from around 1970 until I finally got one in 2005.

Even with the focal plane shutter and Grafmatic, it's lighter than an RB67, has limited movements, a huge range of shutter speeds with fine gradation, and mine has a Kalart rangefinder that lets me shoot without needing the ground glass (handy with a Grafmatic).

If I could keep only a single camera, I'd have to think hard between the Annie and my RB67, but the Annie would probably win.

Click to expand...

Its amazing and awesome to hear that alot of people still own and use the graflex. It seems like "the beginner camera" and rest of like camera for alot of people. I guess it has just the right amount of bells and whistles ?

The GRAPHICS are utilitarian professional cameras that offer all of the functionality required for basic LF photography.

Other cameras offer different, or additional, functionality that serve other LF needs.

I'd skip the box camera and get a Crown Graphic.
I know that even this simple 4x5 camera seems complex. I remember when I bought mine (my fist 4x5 camera and yes, I still have it and use it). I was fortunate to be able to meet the seller in person. He gave me a ten minute introduction and I think that made all the difference in the world. I also recommend buying and reading one or more of the books that @Dan Fromm recommended (see post #4 above). If you were closer, I'd be happy to give you the ten minute intro. Maybe you can find someone local to give you a quick show-and-tell. It will help immensely to simply lay hands on a camera for a few minutes.

BradS said:

I'd skip the box camera and get a Crown Graphic.
I know that even this simple 4x5 camera seems complex. I remember when I bought mine (my fist 4x5 camera and yes, I still have it and use it). I was fortunate to be able to meet the seller in person. He gave me a ten minute introduction and I think that made all the difference in the world. I also recommend buying and reading one or more of the books that @Dan Fromm recommended (see post #4 above). If you were closer, I'd be happy to give you the ten minute intro. Maybe you can find someone local to give you a quick show-and-tell. It will help immensely to simply lay hands on a camera for a few minutes.

Click to expand...

Thanks! Thats really kind that youd offer something like that to a newbie!

There is a fella who does tin type in the city north of me, Ive been working on trying to meet him. He must have a large format for that.

BradS said:

I also recommend buying and reading one or more of the books that @Dan Fromm recommended (see post #4 above).

Click to expand...

Another I'd add to that list if you're at all interested in Speed or Crown Graphics is Graflex and Graphic Photography, which is essentially an extended user manual for the Graflex line as of whenever the particular edition you have was published (it was updated and reprinted at least half a dozen times). Having practically memorized that book in grade school (it's where I got the hankering for a Speed), it took me longer to inspect my new-to-me Annie for condition after unboxing than it did to learn to operate it.

Honestly, they're not very complicated cameras. You can ignore the focal plane shutter and use the front shutter, that works like the one on a 6x9 or smaller folding camera from before they auto-cocked on advance -- but the focal plane shutter can do things the leaf shutter can't (speeds up to 1000th, which is where "Speed Graphic" comes from; use lenses that have no shutter in them or that are locked open for one reason or another, etc.). Get one a generation newer than mine, there's even flash sync on the rear shutter (though good luck finding focal plane bulbs these days).

Most of the screw-ups in large format are related to learning to use film holders and focus/frame on the ground glass, and those are the same on a monorail as on a Speed. But you can also use a Speed like a big, heavy folding camera, as long as it's got a working RF (and the Kalart is easy to recalibrate for whatever lens you choose to mount -- takes about 30 minutes the first time, probably more like 10 after you'd done it a few times without too much time between).