Barry Thornton's Two Bath Developer questions

[MrBrowning]

A dust particle, or grain of sand, or whatever might have been inadvertently introduced onto the roller when loading that roll of film and then possibly blown out or knocked out upon removing the film or loading the next one. Happens from time to time. Sometimes a 35mm roll has something in its felt light traps that causes a scratch only on that roll as another example...

Thanks that's good to know. I haven't had anything like that happen with my 35mm or the Mat-124 until now.

 

[Paul Howell]

I tried BT's 2 bath, in my work I found it to work well with 6X9 and 4X5, but not to my liking with 35mm. I have been shooting and processing film for over 40 years and never had or known of anyone haveing allegic reactions to D76, not to say that some folks might be sensitive, just is rare. BT's 2 bath does have Pro, which is toxic and might pose to danger to a septi tank. One advantage of BT's 2 bath is that can be used as divided or a single bath.

 

[MrBrowning]

BT's 2 bath does have Pro, which is toxic and might pose to danger to a septi tank.

Does have Pro?

I don't understand. Do you mean Pyro? The formula I have for it is a follows:

Bath A
Metol 6.25g
Sodium Sulphite 85g
Water to 1 litre

Bath B
Sodium Metaborate 12g

Taken from his website.



Water to 1 litre

 

[baachitraka]

There is a new formula which increases metol to 6.5g and reduce sulphite to 80g.

 

[Paul Howell]

Does have Pro?

I don't understand. Do you mean Pyro? The formula I have for it is a follows:

Bath A
Metol 6.25g
Sodium Sulphite 85g
Water to 1 litre

Bath B
Sodium Metaborate 12g

Taken from his website.



Water to 1 litre

sorry, got confused with Exactol Lux, which the formula I used.

 

[MrBrowning]

There is a new formula which increases metol to 6.5g and reduce sulphite to 80g.

That is the formula that is in his book "Edge of Darkness" if I remember correctly.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

There are no good combinations the film is the critical choice.

Two bath development shares a similar problem with monobath development in that, for best results, the bath(s) must be adjusted for each film. Unfortunately the results obtained from two bath developers is usually not commensurate with the ease of use.

 

[MrBrowning]

Unfortunately the results obtained from two bath developers is usually not commensurate with the ease of use.

Are you saying that the results from two bath developers is less than ideal?

 

[JW PHOTO]

I think what Jerry is trying to say or is saying and trying to get across to you is that two bath development is not a cure-all. You will still have to play with a film to get the most out of it whether you use a two-bath or one shot developer. I will say that you would more than likely get easier printable results with a two-bath developer(you could be a little sloppier in your process) than a one-shot or whatever developer. Will it be better than say, Xtol, D76 or pyro's? The answer is NO! Just a little easier. JW

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Are you saying that the results from two bath developers is less than ideal?

Yes, whether you use something like Diafine or mix your own from published formulas they are a compromise designed to give good results with most every film. Good perhaps not optimal. With a standard developer you just have more control over the results. There really is no flexibility with two bath developers. You do sacrifice some quality for convenience. Remember such developers cause a compression of the tonal scale. You may desire this or maybe not. The only time that I use a two bath developer is when dealing with film from simple cameras that have no exposure control.

 

[baachitraka]

You may still use developers like Rodinal at very high dilutions or any other single bath compensating developers to control contrast, if in case you shoot with toy cameras like Holga.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

You may still use developers like Rodinal at very high dilutions or any other single bath compensating developers to control contrast, if in case you shoot with toy cameras like Holga.

It's not some much a problem of contrast but rather lack of exposure control. A two bath developer helps in this respect.

 

[MrBrowning]

Yes, whether you use something like Diafine or mix your own from published formulas they are a compromise designed to give good results with most every film. Good perhaps not optimal. With a standard developer you just have more control over the results. There really is no flexibility with two bath developers. You do sacrifice some quality for convenience. Remember such developers cause a compression of the tonal scale. You may desire this or maybe not. The only time that I use a two bath developer is when dealing with film from simple cameras that have no exposure control.

Thank you for the explanation.

I did like results I got with it and I can see a place for it. I think from what I've seen it's a developer that I would enjoy working with.

I understand that are a compromise but aren't all developers to an extent (not being sarcastic here, I am seriously asking).

 

[MrBrowning]

I think what Jerry is trying to say or is saying and trying to get across to you is that two bath development is not a cure-all. You will still have to play with a film to get the most out of it whether you use a two-bath or one shot developer. I will say that you would more than likely get easier printable results with a two-bath developer(you could be a little sloppier in your process) than a one-shot or whatever developer. Will it be better than say, Xtol, D76 or pyro's? The answer is NO! Just a little easier. JW

Understood. I admit I do have a tendency to be a little sloppy at times. I try not to be but sometimes it just happens.

 

[john_s]

Let's not forget that the Barry Thornton-type two bath developer is not a split developer like Diafine (where practically no development takes place in Bath A). The Thornton type has the advantage that you can adjust the degree to which the second bath plays, from very little (in which case Part A is basically something very like D-23) to a significant degree (either more time in Bath B or a stronger version of it).

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Let's not forget that the Barry Thornton-type two bath developer is not a split developer like Diafine (where practically no development takes place in Bath A). The Thornton type has the advantage that you can adjust the degree to which the second bath plays, from very little

What you say is true but since some development takes place in bath A you must now watch the temperature of the bath and the film's time in it. In other words you lose the main advantage of a two bath developer. There is no free lunch as the saying goes.

 

[Xmas]

The post bath technique is specialised eg you may need it if the sceane has more contrast than the film.

It is a D23 derivative you reduce the normal time in D23 and then use the post bath so you have two additional parameters.

The % reduction and the post bath time.

D23 is soft working anyway but maybe general purpose for some.

It is a salvage technique pre the burn and dodge... or pre intensification if you are on 4x5 or larger.

If you have loaded panF and the sun comes out...

Ansell was not a sloppy worker

 

[JW PHOTO]

Understood. I admit I do have a tendency to be a little sloppy at times. I try not to be but sometimes it just happens.

I should have used a different word for "sloppier" and never meant using it toward you. I was just trying to say that two bath developers are easier and a little more forgiving when it comes to developing. One minute more in the "A" solution isn't the same as going a minute over in a developer like HC-110 dil.B. Two bath is just a little more forgiving just like Rodinal 1:100 stand would be. JW

 

[MrBrowning]

I should have used a different word for "sloppier" and never meant using it toward you.

I didn't take it as directed toward myself, I didn't take offense and I was being honest. A couple weeks ago I forgot to change the ISO setting on my Canon A-1 and shot a roll of Neopan 400 @ 50 (1st time it's happened). I'd call that sloppy.

However I did take your meaning about it not being the same as other developers.

 

[baachitraka]

But you may get a beautiful shadows as a reward...

 

[olehjalmar]

There is plenty of flexibility with divided D-23/Thornton/Stockler type developers, as the first bath will develop film all by itself. This is unlike Diafine.
It is more like partial development in a standard developer followed by an alkaline bath. If I remember correctly, on Thonton's website, he also suggests you can try any standard developer, like HC-110, for one half to two thirds of the normal time, followed by an alkaline bath.
But I agree, it's not a cure-all. It *can* be used to reduce contrast, though. In my experience, it is a good choice if you want to scan your negatives.

Yes, whether you use something like Diafine or mix your own from published formulas they are a compromise designed to give good results with most every film. Good perhaps not optimal. With a standard developer you just have more control over the results. There really is no flexibility with two bath developers. You do sacrifice some quality for convenience. Remember such developers cause a compression of the tonal scale. You may desire this or maybe not. The only time that I use a two bath developer is when dealing with film from simple cameras that have no exposure control.

 

[MrBrowning]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the answers.

 

[MrBrowning]

I have one last question on using BTTB. I have a roll of HP5 that I want to develop and it was shot @ISO 200. I had intended to develop it in Xtol but since I'm out of Xtol and not putting an order in for it for a while I'm wondering what I should use as a starting point for BTTB. If memory serves me correct ISO 400 film should be developed for 4 minutes in each bath. Should I reduce the time or would it be alright to stick with the 4 minutes?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

An EI of 200 for TX is within the normal latitude of the film so just develop it as you normally would. This would be true for all developers.

 

[MrBrowning]

An EI of 200 for TX is within the normal latitude of the film so just develop it as you normally would. This would be true for all developers.

Okay. I just wasn't sure if a two bath need any special. I'll just run it at the recommended time then.