Barry Thornton's Two Bath Developer questions

[baachitraka]

Nothing to worry, go for it. You will have beautiful negatives...

 

[MrBrowning]

Nothing to worry, go for it. You will have beautiful negatives...

That's what I'm hoping for. I'll find out tonight.

 

[JW PHOTO]

Well, all this talk of Berry Thornton's two bath got me perked! I ordered a used copy of "Edge of Darkness" from Amazon and it just arrived today. Very interesting reading and easy to comprehend. A few editing mistakes, but easy to figure. Doesn't go into much detail as far as Barry's own developer formula, but very good reading all the way around. JW

 

[MrBrowning]

Well, all this talk of Berry Thornton's two bath got me perked! I ordered a used copy of "Edge of Darkness" from Amazon and it just arrived today. Very interesting reading and easy to comprehend. A few editing mistakes, but easy to figure. Doesn't go into much detail as far as Barry's own developer formula, but very good reading all the way around. JW

I have not had a chance to finish it but I've enjoyed what I've read. Its going to wind up being a book I read again.

 

[TheToadMen]

I have not had a chance to finish it but I've enjoyed what I've read. Its going to wind up being a book I read again.

+1

 

[JW PHOTO]

I'll probably read it three of four times before it sinks in. I have Ansel's three book series and it still hasn't sunk in all the way. Heck, that's been more than fifteen years worth of reading. JW

 

[David Allen]

I have one last question on using BTTB. I have a roll of HP5 that I want to develop and it was shot @ISO 200. I had intended to develop it in Xtol but since I'm out of Xtol and not putting an order in for it for a while I'm wondering what I should use as a starting point for BTTB. If memory serves me correct ISO 400 film should be developed for 4 minutes in each bath. Should I reduce the time or would it be alright to stick with the 4 minutes?

Thanks in advance.

Hi there,

My standard for Delta 400 rated at an EI of 200 is 5.5 minutes in each bath. The full processing sequence (using Paterson plastic tanks) that I use is as follows:

Ensure all chemicals are at 20 C.

00:00 pre-soak with constant agitation
01:45 drain pre-soak out of the tank
02:00 Pour Bath A in and invert 4 times in the first 30 seconds followed by a sharp tap on the bottom of the tank to dislodge any possible air bubbles. Then one gentle inversion every 30 seconds always followed by a sharp tap on the bottom of the tank to dislodge any possible air bubbles.
06:45 Pour Bath A out of tank into a jug.
07:00 Pour Bath B in and invert 4 times in the first 30 seconds followed by a sharp tap on the bottom of the tank to dislodge any possible air bubbles. Then one gentle inversion every 30 seconds always followed by a sharp tap on the bottom of the tank to dislodge any possible air bubbles.
11:45 Pour Bath B out of tank into a jug.
12:00 Pour in water stop bath and agitate constantly
12:45 Pour water stop bath out into the drain.
13:00 Pour in fix and agitate constantly
15:00 Remove films from tank and place into a large jug of water and leave until all of the pink dye is removed from the film then return the film to the fix for a further 2 minutes.
Finally, wash using the Ilford method.

A note on mixing the chemicals and use

• I mix up 1 litre of Bath A (my tank is the 1 litre version that can accommodate up to 4 films) and store in a 1 litre dark brown glass bottle. This one litre is sufficient for 24 films (but note the following point about Bath B).
• I mix up two litres of Bath B at the normal 12g of Sodium Metaborate (which are stored in two 1 litre dark brown glass bottles) and use each bottle of Bath B for 12 films and then discard.
• I mix up one litre of Bath B at the N+ dilution of 20g of Sodium Metaborate (which is stored in a 1 litre dark brown glass bottles) and use rarely when needed.

A note on the N-, N and N+ dilutions

• 99% of all my photographs are developed with the N version of Bath B. I have never had any negative where I felt that it should have been developed using the N- version of Bath B.
• The N+ version of Bath B is useful but not in the sense of a strict +1 stop expansion (which can be much better achieved by selenium toning the negative). If I photograph something that has dark shadows and bright highlights but also a significant part of the scene is relatively lacking in mid-tone separation then I use the N+ version of Bath B. This has a significant effect on expanding the mid-tones of a scene that was lacking such a mid-tone separation in the original scene.

Having just quickly looked through the 100 odd images on my website, there are 6 photographs where I used the N+ Bath B and all of the rest were developed using the normal Bath B.

Best of luck finding your own best way of using Thornton's two-bath developer - it is a great, reliable and cheap developer.

David.
www.dsallen.de

 

[MrBrowning]

Hi there,

My standard for Delta 400 rated at an EI of 200 is 5.5 minutes in each bath. The full processing sequence (using Paterson plastic tanks) that I use is as follows:

Ensure all chemicals are at 20 C.

00:00 pre-soak with constant agitation
01:45 drain pre-soak out of the tank
02:00 Pour Bath A in and invert 4 times in the first 30 seconds followed by a sharp tap on the bottom of the tank to dislodge any possible air bubbles. Then one gentle inversion every 30 seconds always followed by a sharp tap on the bottom of the tank to dislodge any possible air bubbles.
06:45 Pour Bath A out of tank into a jug.
07:00 Pour Bath B in and invert 4 times in the first 30 seconds followed by a sharp tap on the bottom of the tank to dislodge any possible air bubbles. Then one gentle inversion every 30 seconds always followed by a sharp tap on the bottom of the tank to dislodge any possible air bubbles.
11:45 Pour Bath B out of tank into a jug.
12:00 Pour in water stop bath and agitate constantly
12:45 Pour water stop bath out into the drain.
13:00 Pour in fix and agitate constantly
15:00 Remove films from tank and place into a large jug of water and leave until all of the pink dye is removed from the film then return the film to the fix for a further 2 minutes.
Finally, wash using the Ilford method.

A note on mixing the chemicals and use

• I mix up 1 litre of Bath A (my tank is the 1 litre version that can accommodate up to 4 films) and store in a 1 litre dark brown glass bottle. This one litre is sufficient for 24 films (but note the following point about Bath B).
• I mix up two litres of Bath B at the normal 12g of Sodium Metaborate (which are stored in two 1 litre dark brown glass bottles) and use each bottle of Bath B for 12 films and then discard.
• I mix up one litre of Bath B at the N+ dilution of 20g of Sodium Metaborate (which is stored in a 1 litre dark brown glass bottles) and use rarely when needed.

A note on the N-, N and N+ dilutions

• 99% of all my photographs are developed with the N version of Bath B. I have never had any negative where I felt that it should have been developed using the N- version of Bath B.
• The N+ version of Bath B is useful but not in the sense of a strict +1 stop expansion (which can be much better achieved by selenium toning the negative). If I photograph something that has dark shadows and bright highlights but also a significant part of the scene is relatively lacking in mid-tone separation then I use the N+ version of Bath B. This has a significant effect on expanding the mid-tones of a scene that was lacking such a mid-tone separation in the original scene.

Having just quickly looked through the 100 odd images on my website, there are 6 photographs where I used the N+ Bath B and all of the rest were developed using the normal Bath B.

Best of luck finding your own best way of using Thornton's two-bath developer - it is a great, reliable and cheap developer.

David.
www.dsallen.de

Thank you very much for this. I really appreciate it.

 

[Harold33]

In my opinion, it's a good developer, but TD-201 (see Anchell & Troop's Cookbook) may be a bit better for resolution of fine details.

 

[David Allen]

In my opinion, it's a good developer, but TD-201 (see Anchell & Troop's Cookbook) may be a bit better for resolution of fine details.

As TD-201 has more Sulphide as BTTB developer, I am not sure how/why it should/could resolve more detail. Anyhow, BTTB developer is so simple, cheap and ideally suited to my work I will not test TD-201 as I find BTTB gives me the best balance between sharpness, grain, resolution and sharpness. More important is making images!

Bests,

David
www.dsallen.de

 

[baachitraka]

Please may also consider David's method to find personal E.I and development times, if there is no access to densitometer.

 

[TheToadMen]

... BTTB developer is so simple, cheap and ideally suited ...
David

Hi David,
Were do you get the BTTB chemistry from?
Bert from Holland

 

[David Allen]

Hi David,
Were do you get the BTTB chemistry from?
Bert from Holland

Hi Bert,

I buy my raw chemicals from Fototechnik Suvatlar Simrockstr.178a, D-22589 Hamburg. Tel.040/397931 und 395709
Fax: 040/39190866 Mobil: 0173/6011772 E-Mail: fotosuvatlar@live.de

They have no website but I have always just sent an e-mail with what I need and it just comes in the post with an invoice with the details to do a bank transfer.

The most recent price list (BTTB developer doesn't need a lot of chemicals so I don't order very often) that I have is attached

Alternatively, you can order via Moersch:

http://www.moersch-photochemie.de

Also, APUG member and also Berlin-based Andreas Tilch sent me this link as another possibility. I haven't used them but have kept in reserve should my main supplier disappear:

http://www.westernphoto.it/sell-online/Photographic-chemicals-pure-38/sort,priority|d/page,1

Bests,

David
www.dsallen.de

 

[baachitraka]

Yes, I got all the chemicals from Suvatlar. Just ask for a quotation.

 

[MrBrowning]

Please may also consider David's method to find personal E.I and development times, if there is no access to densitometer.

I found it. I will be doing this sometime this week. Thanks.

 

[TheToadMen]

Thank you,
I never made a developer from raw chemicals before. Should be a nice experiment, though.
I'll re-read the book to see what chemicals I need and how to mix these, before I put in an order.
Thanks,
Bert from Holland

Hi Bert,
I buy my raw chemicals from Fototechnik Suvatlar Simrockstr.178a, D-22589 Hamburg. Tel.040/397931 und 395709
Fax: 040/39190866 Mobil: 0173/6011772 E-Mail: fotosuvatlar@live.de

David

 

[baachitraka]

@David,

One thing that spoil the party of using Two Bath Developers in general is bringing the temperatures to 20°C. BTTB is no different and me always finding that I need to immerse in hot water bath till it reaches 20°C, which sometimes is not so much of fun.

Do you care about maintaining the temps at all?

 

[David Allen]

@David,

One thing that spoil the party of using Two Bath Developers in general is bringing the temperatures to 20°C. BTTB is no different and me always finding that I need to immerse in hot water bath till it reaches 20°C, which sometimes is not so much of fun.

Do you care about maintaining the temps at all?

Whatever anyone says, keeping all of your chemicals at a constant temperature is very important. The oft stated idea that 'it doesn't matter' with two-bath developers is just wrong and also bad practice. I am fairly lucky that my darkroom remains fairly constant at 22C throughout the year. This means that I need to slightly cool Baths A&B and (when I am reusing it) the fixer as well. To do this, I have one of those plastic containers at home in the freezer that people use to put into cool box when taking beer for a trip out in the countryside. I simply put Baths A&B into jugs that are wide enough to accept the ice container and then place it in to Bath A for about one minute (always take out before the thermometer reads 20C as it will continue to cool a little and you can always repeat as necessary) and then thoroughly wash and then put in to Bath B for about one minute. I then thoroughly clean before putting back in to the freezer.

In previous darkrooms, I have had the opposite problem with it being too cold. In this case I used to have a small tupperware box that I would fill with boiling water and then use like the ice container above (once again, always take out before the thermometer reads 20C as it will continue to heat a little and you can always repeat as necessary).

For all other stages of the process - pre-soak, water stop-bath, fix if making new and all of the washing stages I do the following:

Take a large bucket that is kept clean and only used for mixing plain water to temperature. Fill bucket with cold and hot water to 20C. Then use this for all of the stages of film processing excluding the Baths A & B (plus fix if you are reusing it). This, in combination with cooling/heating Bath A & B ensures that the whole process will be achieved with a constatnt 20C.

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de

 

[MrBrowning]

00:00 pre-soak with constant agitation
01:45 drain pre-soak out of the tank

If i remember correctly in Barry Thornton suggested not to pre-soak the film with this developer. Do you find that it makes much of a difference?

 

[David Allen]

Irrespective of which developer I have used, I have always pre-soaked. Therefore, I do not know if there is any difference with or without pre-soak when using BTTB developer.

With regard to BTTB developer, what I do know is that, by pre-soaking the Bath A stays relatively clean.

More generally, whenever a friend, colleague or student has approached me with uneven processing / sprocket drag / mottling problems we have always run a test where they process the films themselves using their preferred developer / processing sequence with the simple modification of introducing a pre-soak. This has always cured the problem.

You will find that there are thousands of photographers who happily process without pre-soak but for me keeping the Bath A clean and the empirical evidence that people who do not pre-soak have had problems has led me to always stick with a pre-soak.

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de

 

[MrBrowning]

Irrespective of which developer I have used, I have always pre-soaked. Therefore, I do not know if there is any difference with or without pre-soak when using BTTB developer.

With regard to BTTB developer, what I do know is that, by pre-soaking the Bath A stays relatively clean.

More generally, whenever a friend, colleague or student has approached me with uneven processing / sprocket drag / mottling problems we have always run a test where they process the films themselves using their preferred developer / processing sequence with the simple modification of introducing a pre-soak. This has always cured the problem.

You will find that there are thousands of photographers who happily process without pre-soak but for me keeping the Bath A clean and the empirical evidence that people who do not pre-soak have had problems has led me to always stick with a pre-soak.

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de

Very interesting. I'll have to give it a shot and see what difference it makes. I'm always open to was to better my process and fix any errors I may have.

 

[MrBrowning]

I know this is probably a dumb question and thing to do but has anyone tried BTTB as a paper dev? I used it from a pinhole shot I took on Harman Direct Positive Paper and it turned out pretty good (if you ignore that I under exposed the shot). I ran out of my normal paper developer and figured why not.



Sorry my scanner isn't the greatest.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Irrespective of which developer I have used, I have always pre-soaked.

Diafine has always stated not to pre-soak film. I think their reasoning would hold for all 2 bath developers.

 

[TheToadMen]

I really like this image, underexposed and all! Not too contrasty, as this paper often is.
I will try Harman DPP in my pinhole camera too.
Bert from Holland

I know this is probably a dumb question and thing to do but has anyone tried BTTB as a paper dev? I used it from a pinhole shot I took on Harman Direct Positive Paper and it turned out pretty good (if you ignore that I under exposed the shot). I ran out of my normal paper developer and figured why not.

View attachment 87079

Sorry my scanner isn't the greatest.

 

[MrBrowning]

I really like this image, underexposed and all! Not too contrasty, as this paper often is.
I will try Harman DPP in my pinhole camera too.
Bert from Holland

Thanks Bert.