Barry Thornton's Two Bath Developer questions

MrBrowning · Apr 18, 2014

Does anyone have any experience with Barry Thornton's Two Bath Developer (BTTB)? I have read a bunch of the articles on here and one question I have not seen answered is what films are not compatible with this developer? How would something like Delta 3200 fair with it? How about IR films like Rollei IR400 or Efke IR820?

I bought the stuff to mix it and I am looking forward to trying it with some other films but I'd prefer not to waste rolls on something that isn't going to be a good combination.

Xmas · Apr 18, 2014

I've only tried the Ansell Adams precursor D 23 & post bath on APX400 v Rodinal stand for badly exposed negatives.

Barry's modifications make the development more active. More grain probably.

I've also used the post bath with Microphen to improve shadow detail.

Not seen any bad effect in my tests.

MrBrowning · Apr 18, 2014

Xmas said:
I've only tried the Ansell Adams precursor D 23 & post bath on APX400 v Rodinal stand for badly exposed negatives.

Barry's modifications make the development more active. More grain probably.

I've also used the post bath with Microphen to improve shadow detail.

Not seen any bad effect in my tests.

So if it increases grain then something like delta 3200 or Efke wouldn't be an idea film choice. Is that correct? I understand it depends on the "look" your going for but i'm just wondering if it would cause the grain to become too much of a problem.

JW PHOTO · Apr 18, 2014

MrBrowning said:
So if it increases grain then something like delta 3200 or Efke wouldn't be an idea film choice. Is that correct? I understand it depends on the "look" your going for but i'm just wondering if it would cause the grain to become too much of a problem.

With Barry's 2-bath the grain increase would be very slight. Nothing to stop you from using it on either of the films you mention, but I'm not going to say it's the best developer for either of those films. JW

MrBrowning · Apr 18, 2014

JW PHOTO said:
With Barry's 2-bath the grain increase would be very slight. Nothing to stop you from using it on either of the films you mention, but I'm not going to say it's the best developer for either of those films. JW

So then what do you think is be the best developer for the Efke IR820? I used Xtol (well the EcoPro stuff) and got pretty good results for the first time using an IR film. I just bought 20 rolls of the stuff so it would be interesting to know others opinions.

JW PHOTO · Apr 18, 2014

MrBrowning said:
So then what do you think is be the best developer for the Efke IR820? I used Xtol (well the EcoPro stuff) and got pretty good results for the first time using an IR film. I just bought 20 rolls of the stuff so it would be interesting to know others opinions.

I can't give you an opinion on the Efke IR film since I've never used it, but I'm sure others here have. Some folks like more pronounced grain in their IR film and others like the softer, dreamer look. Which one you prefer will decide which developer and process you use. If Xtol gave you results you liked then.......? JW

Xmas · Apr 19, 2014

JW PHOTO said:
With Barry's 2-bath the grain increase would be very slight. Nothing to stop you from using it on either of the films you mention, but I'm not going to say it's the best developer for either of those films. JW

Concur Barry's modifications increase sharpness at expense of grain but if you are using Delta3200 you expect grain if you don't like grain use Delta400.
The developer has little influence.

David Allen · Apr 19, 2014

Barry Thornton's two-bath with Ilford Delta 400 (rated at a personal EI of 200) has been my sole combination for the past 12 years. This combination meets all of my needs. It is a fine developer if you require what it delivers: The perfect balance between fine grain, speed and contrast for scenes of normal to high contrast range. Every image on my website was shot using a Mamiya 7 with 65mm lens, Delta 400 in Thornton's Two-Bath developer. I would highly recommend Thornton's brew unless you tend to shoot in flat light. It is also foolproof for night photography.

However, I have no experience using it with IR film. In general, if a film tends toward high contrast or you shoot scenes that are high in contrast then BTTB developer will be fine.

Bests,

David
www.dsallen.de

TheToadMen · Apr 19, 2014

If you want to understand Barry Thornton and his way of developing, read his book: The Edge Of Darkness.
Is a fine book to read that explains his work and contains many fine images.
But watch out for sharks, asking way too much money for a copy of this book.

I have two copies of this book, so if you can't find one, PM me.
Bert from Hollad

Richard S. (rich815) · Apr 19, 2014

TheToadMen said:
If you want to understand Barry Thornton and his way of developing, read his book: The Edge Of Darkness.
Is a fine book to read that explains his work and contains many fine images.
But watch out for sharks, asking way too much money for a copy of this book.

View attachment 86476

I have two copies of this book, so if you can't find one, PM me.
Bert from Hollad

Might be my favorite all-time photography book. I'm re-reading it now for maybe the fifth or sixth time.

Steve Smith · Apr 19, 2014

Richard Sintchak (rich815) said:
Might be my favorite all-time photography book. I'm re-reading it now for maybe the fifth or sixth time.

I don't own a copy but I regularly borrow it from the library.

Steve.

gkardmw · Apr 19, 2014

David Allen,

What is your agitiation/time routine for Delta 400 EI 200 with BTTB?

Dave

Richard S. (rich815) · Apr 19, 2014

Barry's earlier and rarer book is good too, "Elements: The Making of Fine Monochrome Prints" but very, very expensive. And not to be confused with his later "Elements of Transition".

Ok, this thread has me wanting to use Exactol Lux and DiXactol Ultra again....one or two bath. Not the same as his Two Bath as discussed by the OP but awesome developers.

MrBrowning · Apr 19, 2014

TheToadMen said:
If you want to understand Barry Thornton and his way of developing, read his book: The Edge Of Darkness.
Is a fine book to read that explains his work and contains many fine images.
But watch out for sharks, asking way too much money for a copy of this book.

View attachment 86476

I have two copies of this book, so if you can't find one, PM me.
Bert from Hollad

I have a copy that I'm in the process of reading (I really am enjoying this book). That's where I read about the developer the first time. In his book though he goes from talking about BTTB to talking about Pyro quite quickly. Unless I'm just not far enough along in the book. I did run a roll of Rollei Superpan 200 though it last night and I like the looks of the negs.

I was just looking for a little more info than was in the book.

Thank you for the offer though.

TheToadMen · Apr 20, 2014

MrBrowning said:
I have a copy that I'm in the process of reading (I really am enjoying this book). That's where I read about the developer the first time. In his book though he goes from talking about BTTB to talking about Pyro quite quickly. Unless I'm just not far enough along in the book. I did run a roll of Rollei Superpan 200 though it last night and I like the looks of the negs.

I was just looking for a little more info than was in the book.

Thank you for the offer though.

Did you know his website http://www.barrythornton.com is still online? Maybe you'll find some extra info there?

MrBrowning · Apr 20, 2014

TheToadMen said:
Did you know his website http://www.barrythornton.com is still online? Maybe you'll find some extra info there?

I had previously read though the website. I have re-read it this morning and because I was interested in Barry's version I didn't pay as much attention to what he had to say about the other methods as I should have.

I just want to make sure I understand this right. Assuming I was going to to a two bath developer for delta 3200 or IR820 (even though it may not be the best method of development). BTTB would do little in the way of minimizing the grain and Stöeckler's would be better. If the scene was of really low contrast then something like Adams D23 variant would be better.

Do I have that right?

I really like the results I have got with the 2 rolls of film I put though BTTB. Can't wait to try some more stuff.

baachitraka · Apr 20, 2014

If you are starting new with BTTB, I may recommend D-23 for 9 mins @ISO 320 instead for ISO 400 film.
Two baths are handy if you want control the extreme contrast, otherwise single bath will do absolutely fine.
* Initial 30s continuous agitation and two inversions every minute.

MrBrowning · Apr 20, 2014

Ok so I used the BTTB with the Rollei Superpan and 1 of the rolls had a line that ran down the right side of the negative. It's on every frame. Any Idea what it is? Other rolls shot with the same camera came out fine. What did I do wrong?

baachitraka · Apr 20, 2014

May be the scratches from the rollers...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

MrBrowning · Apr 20, 2014

baachitraka said:
May be the scratches from the rollers...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Not to ask a dumb question but I developed 2 rolls of film shot after this one and it wasn't on them. Is it a possibility it corrected itself? Or could it be something else?

How could I tell if it was something on the rollers?

Richard S. (rich815) · Apr 20, 2014

A dust particle, or grain of sand, or whatever might have been inadvertently introduced onto the roller when loading that roll of film and then possibly blown out or knocked out upon removing the film or loading the next one. Happens from time to time. Sometimes a 35mm roll has something in its felt light traps that causes a scratch only on that roll as another example...

Xmas · Apr 21, 2014

MrBrowning said:
I'd prefer not to waste rolls on something that isn't going to be a good combination.

There are no good combinations the film is the critical choice. Except if you use a slow microfilm you need to use a soft working developer to tame the extreme contrast.

A cheap developer like D76 saves $. It might give you dermatitis! It might sterilize a septic tank!

A long life developer like Rodinal useful on shelf eg if the D76 changes colour cause you left the cap off.

Tom Kershaw · Apr 21, 2014

I've used the Thornton 2-bath developer in the past but found I didn't always want the compression the two bath developers introduce. These days XTOL works fine for me; after experimentation with Pyrocat-HD, Ilfotec HC, D-76 etc. As I always use nitrile gloves in the darkroom I'm not sure dermatitis is really a serious concern.

Furthermore, I'm not sure how well the Barry Thornton approach stands up in general....

Tom

Xmas · Apr 21, 2014

Tom Kershaw said:
I'm not sure dermatitis is really a serious concern.

Furthermore, I'm not sure how well the Barry Thornton approach stands up in general....

Tom

Dermatitis is not funny, if you get it, wearing nitrile is not a fashion statement...

The two bath is only for increasing film dynamic range like HDR, if you need more than eg D23 offers, it does not gain a lot. So it is a specialist 'get out of goal free' card, might reduce the burn in needed a bit.

Noel

MrBrowning · Apr 21, 2014

Xmas said:
There are no good combinations the film is the critical choice. Except if you use a slow microfilm you need to use a soft working developer to tame the extreme contrast.

A cheap developer like D76 saves $. It might give you dermatitis! It might sterilize a septic tank!

A long life developer like Rodinal useful on shelf eg if the D76 changes colour cause you left the cap off.

Are you saying that BTTB would also sterilize a septic tank?

Also from everything I have read (I live in the country and do have a septic tank) that it would take a relatively large amount of developer (regardless of type) to cause issues. Fixer (with silver still in it) and color chemistry are different beasts.

Considering that I only develop a few rolls at a time (maybe 4 in one session) and at most twice a week (though it is becoming a rare occasion when I get in the darkroom more than once a week). I have not had any issues.

I have used PMK, EcoPro (xtol), Rodinal over the course of 2 years. Not to mentions the paper developers.

Barry Thornton's Two Bath Developer questions

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